Tulsa District Attorney Abuse of Power:Charge filed in road-rage homicide

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Thread: Tulsa District Attorney Abuse of Power:Charge filed in road-rage homicide

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    Member Array landelmer's Avatar
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    Exclamation Tulsa District Attorney Abuse of Power:Charge filed in road-rage homicide

    When I read this I was reminded that the "National NRA Gunshow" will be here in Oct. and Mayor Kathy Taylor is with Bloomberg's gun group here in Tulsa.

    A former security guard who said he feared for his life was not justified in shooting another man, the D.A. says.


    Tulsa County District Attorney Tim Harris charged a retired security guard Monday with first-degree manslaughter, saying the suspect had no justifiable reason to shoot a man to death during a road-rage dispute.

    Kenneth Ray Gumm, 67, who is CLEET-certified and has a concealed-carry license, told police that he felt threatened by Dale Turney, 47, when he shot Turney in a River Parks parking lot June 10.

    An autopsy report shows that Turney's blood-alcohol level was 0.8 -- meaning he was legally too drunk to drive -- and that he had methamphetamine in his system when he died.

    Harris said he decided to file the manslaughter charge after an investigation in which he personally interviewed witnesses, looked at photographs and researched toxicology reports.

    Oklahoma's "Stand Your Ground" law, which went into effect Nov.1, allows people to use deadly force in certain conditions in which they have "a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm," according to state statute.

    But Harris said that "deadly force wasn't justified in this situation."

    For the Stand Your Ground law to apply, the prosecutor said, the person against whom deadly force is used must be entering a residence or vehicle or trying to remove someone forcibly from the dwelling or vehicle.

    Harris said Gumm had no reason to believe that he was in imminent danger and that he wasn't being pulled from his vehicle by Turney.

    Another section of the Stand Your Ground law indicates, however, that the attack can take place "in any other place where he or she (the shooter) has a right to be."

    Harris said he expects that Gumm will surrender to authorities.

    Gumm was not in the Tulsa Jail late Wednesday, and telephone calls to his home were not returned.

    The events that led to the shooting began when Turney received a call from a friend, Charles Geltz, who asked for a ride home from a Brookside bar because he was too drunk to drive, according to a police affidavit.

    Turney picked him up, and as Turney was driving north on Riverside Drive, Gumm pulled out in front of him at 26th Street, according to the affidavit.

    Gumm drove north on Riverside before slowing seven blocks later to turn left into a parking lot near 19th Street.

    Turney yelled at Gumm, made an obscene gesture and followed him to the parking lot, the affidavit says.

    Gumm parked his 1992 Honda, and Turney parked his 1991 Ford Escort behind him, blocking Gumm's car, according to the affidavit.

    Turney then walked toward Gumm, who got out of his car holding his .38-caliber Smith and Wesson revolver, the affidavit says.

    Gumm described Turney as being in a rage and told police that Turney said, "You're history," according to the document.

    Gumm told investigators that he took that statement as a threat against his life, the affidavit says.

    Police had said after the shooting that Gumm said he warned Turney that he had a gun and that because of health problems, he couldn't run away or fight him.

    Gumm also told investigators that he "backed away from Turney approximately two times around his (Gumm's) car" before Turney pushed his shoulder, according to the affidavit.

    Turney was shot once in the chest during the confrontation. He was taken to St. John Medical Center, where he was pronounced dead.

    Gumm said he didn't remember whether his gun went off when he was pushed or if he consciously pulled the trigger, the affidavit says.

    Gumm has a license to carry a concealed weapon and is certified as an armed security guard by the Council on Law Enforcement Education and Training.

    If convicted of the manslaughter charge, he could face four years to life in prison, according to the District Attorney's Office.

    http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/artic...A15_hAfor25553

    This deserves everyones attention please inform as many fourms and Watchdog groups as possible. I do not personally know this guy but it sure does make me mad as hell.

    I posted this in the wrong section could someone please move it. Thank -you
    Last edited by Captain Crunch; September 27th, 2007 at 11:51 AM. Reason: Edit Language Workaround

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  3. #2
    Ron
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    I don't know all of the facts, but this case might well be another good example of not saying anything to the police other then "I feared for my life" until you have had an opportunity to speak with an attorney.

    It is also an example of why "Castle laws" and "Stand Your Ground" laws are not a panacea against a prosecutor intent on going forward against you, notwithstanding that it was a justifiable shooting.

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

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    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
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    This sounds on the edge to me, depending on the percieved ability of Turney to follow through on his threat. Drunks can be dangerous, and if Gumm was reasonably in fear of his life, I think he was justified. A shame he'll have to prove it against this DA, though.
    "A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the continuance of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed."
    Is this hard to understand? Then why does it get unintelligible to some people when 5 little words are changed?

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    I to think this can be argued in any direction. I think the DA is doing the right thing though, that is his job. If there is any doubt whether he should or should not have shot, it needs to be looked into.
    The quoted documents are not complete quotes, and they dont say anything about what the independant witnesses have said about the incident. I think it would be irresponsible of us who know nothing about the case to monday morning quarterback anything.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    VIP Member Array Sig 210's Avatar
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    This is the same idiotic DA who filed charges against a man who killed a scumbag in the act of raping a lady. Charged the Good Guy with carrying a hand gun without a permit. Wish that we could give Tulsa to MA or NY.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig 210 View Post
    This is the same idiotic DA who filed charges against a man who killed a scumbag in the act of raping a lady. Charged the Good Guy with carrying a hand gun without a permit. Wish that we could give Tulsa to MA or NY.
    Is it? If it is, then I take back whatever I said that might be taken as defending him.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    Member Array dhbry232's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by landelmer View Post
    For the Stand Your Ground law to apply, the prosecutor said, the person against whom deadly force is used must be entering a residence or vehicle or trying to remove someone forcibly from the dwelling or vehicle.

    Turney then walked toward Gumm, who got out of his car holding his .38-caliber Smith and Wesson revolver, the affidavit says.
    So if Gumm had stayed in his car would he have been protected by law as interpreted by the DA? If BG had tried to pull him out or hit him inside of car Gumm would have been justified in shooting him according to DA's statement. Sounds like this DA is trying to make political hay with a law he doesn't like and Gumm is the example to made. I guess a jury will have to decide who was right in this case. It's just too bad it has to come to that.
    Laws that forbid the carrying of arms ... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes ... they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. Thomas Jefferson

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    Distinguished Member Array P7fanatic's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by landelmer View Post
    For the Stand Your Ground law to apply, the prosecutor said, the person against whom deadly force is used must be entering a residence or vehicle or trying to remove someone forcibly from the dwelling or vehicle.

    Another section of the Stand Your Ground law indicates, however, that the attack can take place "in any other place where he or she (the shooter) has a right to be."

    http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/artic...A15_hAfor25553

    Sounds to me like the prosecutor/DA is changing the law to fit his agenda.
    Reminds me of what US Attorney Johnny Sutton did to Ramos and Campean.
    The attacker was legally drunk and was on meth.
    It seems the law is similar to Florida in that: "the attack can take place "in any other place where he or she (the shooter) has a right to be."
    Just twist or change the words of the law to fit the desired prosecution. Unless this is cought soon this guys life will be ruined.


    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed Ron.

    As well Gumm made a judgemental mistake in exiting his vehicle to confront Turney.
    It was obvious that Turney was having a problem and as stated he yelled and made obscene gestures at him as he made his left turn into the parking lot. Normal clear thinking sane people don't do such things and then follow you into parking lots to block your car in to a spot.
    Stay in the car separated by glass and steel from the attacker who may or may not be armed, or worst completely out of his mind crazy. It was pretty predictable that this would go sour and Gumm's actions showed that he thought this prior as he exited his own vehicle to again confront Turney only with his firearm unholstered in hand at his side. Bad move.
    Turney seeing this and hearing as Gumm stated the warning for him to get back leaves him with two choices;

    1) Buy his bluff and flee;
    2) Call his bluff and attack betting he won't have the stones to pull the trigger as he has not yet done just that and is trying to talk his way out of trouble, which he (Turney) has already shown an interest and attitude to bring to bear. As well he's out of his mind and irrational, as per his actions prior so to expect a sudden flash of clarity and rational thought from Turney would be at best a 50/50 gamble.

    I can very much see where the DA is coming from.
    Turney obviously was wrong and the initial aggressor, but it was Gumm who engaged the aggressor (exiting his vehicle) and himself became the predator thanks to his being armed and from there per his own statements further engaged Turney going to meet him moving past his own front door toward Turney as opposed to away or at the least standing his ground by staying where had been previously.

    It'll be interesting to hear what happens with this case.
    I suspect Gumm will be found guilty.
    If he had fired on Turney from inside his car with Turney found wounded/dead at his door then I suspect his case would be seen in a different light, by the DA.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    I agree with Janq and Sixto's first post.

    From reading to article the DA must investigate and probably convene a grand jury.
    Sometimes I wonder who the old man in the mirror is....

    Lord, Grant me a good sword and no need to use it.

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    Member Array Puppy's Avatar
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    I guess the problem I have is with those who say he should have stayed in his vehicle. His vehicle was blocked. He had no freedom of movement while sitting in the car. I think I too would have gotten out of the car so I could try to get away.

    He was backed around the car twice?

    Assuming those are all the facts I think he did right getting out and moving away.

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Puppy,

    One has plenty of freedom of movement within their car (?).
    He exited the car and did not try to get away. By his own quoted statement he approached and engaged an also approaching Turney directly.

    The car itself and it's outer skin provides/provided an obviously not impenetratable but a decent degree of immediate protection. Cover if you will. He exited his cover and engaged. That is not standing ones ground, no more so than exiting ones home to confront on the street a perceived attacker (who might have been a real threat but was not yet active).

    Now this is Monday night QB'ing but instead of exiting the car he might have left his car running and let Turney approach and say his words. Even kick his door and damage his car. But do not roll down that window never mind get out. If Turney had a useful weapon in hand e.g. a gun or impact device capable of breaching Gumm's cover/defenses then at that time deploying his gun in fear of his life would have been appropriate and defensible. If not then the worst he had to fear was some relatively minor property damage by a dinged up door panel and globs of spittle on his window.
    As well one should remember that their 1.5+ ton vehicle is itself a pretty darn effective device. Use it as a disuader and/or weapon including to ram ones way out of tight spot such as this. Distance is ones best friend.
    Last item. He knew from the street as per his own quoted statements that Turney was going to follow him into the parking lot.
    So why stop in the parking lot muchless park in such a way/position/placement that ability to flee/escape is minimalized.
    Getting to where he was going was not so important as to risk his life. Enter the parking lot and with Turney close behind keep rolling and exit said parking lot....and drive straight to the closest police or fire station.

    Like many other news items of this sort there are lessons to be learned from the actions of both the victim, Gumm, and the attacker, Turney.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    Senior Member Array joleary223's Avatar
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    If the BG had meth in his system the D.A. should give Gumm a medal, IMO.
    CRIME..... LAW DEFINES, POLICE ENFORCE, CITIZENS PREVENT!

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    VIP Member Array cphilip's Avatar
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    Also don't like his statement that he "Cannot remember if he pulled the trigger or it just discharged". I think that statement sort of sounds fishy.

    And did the scene bare out his description of the car blocking his? No one says...

    I can see where he brought some suspicion on himself here.

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    Member Array Tye_Defender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Like many other news items of this sort there are lessons to be learned from the actions of both the victim, Gumm, and the attacker, Turney.
    What's the lesson to learn from the attacker?
    Don't get drunk.... but if you do, then don't take meth.... but if you do, then don't drive.... but if you do, then don't indulge in road rage.... but if you do, then don't go after the guy that enraged you..... but if you do, then don't keep going after him once he pulls a gun..... but if you do, don't chase him around his car twice..... but if you do, then don't push him.... but if you do.... well then you are dead.

    To be perfectly honest, I don't think there is a thing I could learn from this guy. I do pretty good at avoiding the very first mistake he made.

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