Man Shoots Burglars: PASADENA, TX: MERGED

This is a discussion on Man Shoots Burglars: PASADENA, TX: MERGED within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Janq Exceptions though do occur such as apparently is the case in Texas. - Janq Don't that make everyone want to move ...

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Thread: Man Shoots Burglars: PASADENA, TX: MERGED

  1. #136
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Exceptions though do occur such as apparently is the case in Texas.

    - Janq
    Don't that make everyone want to move to Texas? Sorry we don't have enough room for everyone here, but if you have a concealed carry license, your more than welcome.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  3. #137
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    If Horn was an LEO and made those same comments to the dispatcher, I would regard him exactly as I do now - as a murderer.

    The point is, though, that he ISN'T an LEO. LEOs (as you certainly know) are appointed by the people with certain powers; powers that the general populace does not have. With those powers (all apologies to Stan Lee) come responsibilities, responsibilities that the general populace also does not have.

    I think Horn's actions could be justifiable, for the most part. What actually happened when he confronted the BGs would determine whether or not deadly force was warranted. But his intent is clearly outside the bounds of a civilized nation of laws. If there was no compelling evidence otherwise, I think I would convict based on Horn's stated intent - to kill, not to prevent harm to others.

    And no, farron, it doesn't make me want to move to Texas - God forbid I be mistaken for a petty criminal and executed by some stranger... I think I'd rather have my house burgled.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  4. #138
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    ...And no, farron, it doesn't make me want to move to Texas - God forbid I be mistaken for a petty criminal and executed by some stranger... I think I'd rather have my house burgled.
    Ditto.

    God forbid some person or person with personal mental/life issues or fearful angry at crime/the world shut in type see me 'breaking into' my own car or that of my own home (dude wouldn't know who I am or that I'm associated to said car/house) or the property of a friend or relative (I've once had to break into my father inlaws home via an unlocked window at his request upon accidentally misplacing his spare key at my own home) and make a snap decision of hey that guy looks like those criminals I see on TV (Horn stated to 911 no such happenings occur in his own neighborhood) and decide to roll up on me trying to play the role of citizen justice decider.
    Yes I would likely 'move', to either run/hide or deploy my own legal sidearm toward my own defense. Now what? Yep, somebody goes to the hospital or morgue. Over what, property. When a call to 911 would have resolved things fine and favorably and most lawfully with much lower likelyhood of anyone losing their life if not their insured and largely replaceable property.

    The state I'm in is not perfect (MA) nor are the zones I'm from (DC & MD), but a move to Texas I don't know if the match could be made as based on beliefs, lifestyle, and attitude. No disrespect though to Texans or their great state which IIRC for some time now has been a part of America.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #139
    Distinguished Member Array P7fanatic's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by dang.45 View Post
    And PJ, while I don't think we should be able to simply shoot someone for property crimes that don't involve anyone directly (such as was the case being discussed here), I do think law abiding citizens should be free to confront with the threat of force, those who are found committing these crimes.
    My problem with the way laws in most of the country are written now is that, if I were to leave my home armed to confront these thieves, I would be seen as the aggressor & likely prosecuted as such. That's a bunch of &*%$, for the reasons you and others have articulated. We law-abiding citizens should never have to sit back and watch as criminals take the hard-earned possessions of others, period.
    I agree with your second paragraph for sure. Spot on.
    I'm trying to understand where you're coming from or where you're going in the first. It reminds me of Hillary voting to give Bush the authorization to use force with Iraq but she didn't expect /want him to use force.
    Property crimes DO involve people directly in my opinion. Often their livliehood, cherished possessions or lifes work.

    Love those TEXAS property crime laws.
    Is it still a hanging offense in Texas to steal someone's horse? Hmmm
    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson

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  6. #140
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    If I were an "Anti" and read some of the comments on this thread, I'd think some were a little too "trigger happy". Doesn't exactly "score points" for conceal carry or gun ownership in general.
    I carry a gun for defense not vigilante justice.....

  7. #141
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P7fanatic View Post
    I agree with your second paragraph for sure. Spot on.
    I'm trying to understand where you're coming from or where you're going in the first. It reminds me of Hillary voting to give Bush the authorization to use force with Iraq but she didn't expect /want him to use force.
    Property crimes DO involve people directly in my opinion. Often their livliehood, cherished possessions or lifes work.
    1. My feeling is that I (and everyone else) are only ever justified in using deadly force to prevent or stop an immanent threat to ourselves or another human being. (Though if someone attacked my dog I'm pretty sure he'd get 2 COM just as quickly as if he were attacking my wife - I love my dog! )

    2. I believe that if I witness a property crime happening in my neighborhood, as a citizen, I should be allowed and expected to do what I can to stop that crime from happening. The first step would be to "call for backup", i.e. dial 911 to report the crime, and then to confront the criminals in whatever manner I am comfortable with, including the threat of deadly force if necessary, i.e. pointing a loaded weapon at them and telling them to get on the ground.

    3. If and only if the criminal(s) produce their own weapon(s), or give me some other reason to reasonably fear for my life or safety, I will then & only then be justified in actually using deadly force. If they comply with my request to sit their butts down and wait for the police to get there, I have no cause to use deadly force.

    4. Should the BG(s) not comply with my request and decide rather to run away (with or without the stolen property), I would not be justified in using deadly force to stop them, as they are not threatening me or anyone else. If I'm in a position to follow them to be able to get a look at their license plate as they drive away, I might do that, but so long as I do not perceive that I am in danger, I cannot justifiably use deadly force to prevent their escape.

    Of course there is the usual disclaimer that I understand that this may not be legal in many parts of the country, and that I will follow the laws of the jurisdiction in which I find myself, and would recommend that everyone else reading this do the same. That won't stop me from agitating to get laws changed to allow me to do any and all of the above given the scenario I described, without fear of prosecution, but I will obey all applicable laws...

    This is the extra-long version of that first paragraph. Does that make any more sense?
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

  8. #142
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    Sounds about right to me, dang.45. I would caution (though I'm sure you already know) that interjecting yourself physically into any situation like this could very well cost you a lot more than the property originally at stake. I appreciate (hell, admire) the willingness to risk so much to help out your (literal and figurative) neighbor, but I ask ALL of you to seriously consider the (so often brought up) unintended consequences of said intervention.

    And, in loving memory of Sgt. Phil Esterhaus... "Hey, let's be careful out there."
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  9. #143
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Sounds about right to me, dang.45. I would caution (though I'm sure you already know) that interjecting yourself physically into any situation like this could very well cost you a lot more than the property originally at stake. I appreciate (hell, admire) the willingness to risk so much to help out your (literal and figurative) neighbor, but I ask ALL of you to seriously consider the (so often brought up) unintended consequences of said intervention.
    I guess I could / should have been even more precise in point #2:

    While I stand by my statement that, as citizens, we should all be "allowed & expected to do what we can to stop a crime from happening", I do not mean to suggest that everyone should be expected to intervene in the manner I described. That's kind of what I meant by the next sentence where I mentioned "confronting the criminals in whatever manner I am comfortable with." I would expect that someone would at least call the police, but I would not expect everyone to act as I stated I'd like to have the right to act.

    In addition, let me make it clear that I would only consider acting in this manner if it happened very near to where I live. I think I mentioned this a few days ago, but I see confronting criminals near where I live as protecting myself, my loved ones, & my property, since I want to do everything I can to at the very least scare the crap out of any BGs doing bad things in my neighborhood, in the hope that they'll never come back and try to go after people or things in my house. Ideally, I would be able to either detain them without incident, or at least slow them down enough for the police to arrive.

    I would not take the actions I described were I in a retail store of some type, nor would I be likely to do so in another residential area that is outside of my neighborhood. It's not that I would be any less disturbed to see someone stealing property from a house 10 miles away from mine, its just that I would no longer feel as though I were protecting myself & my own.

    I guess what I'm saying is that I believe there is a principle involved in trying to stop or prevent crime in "my own backyard", be it literally my backyard, or figuratively. I am prepared to die for that principle, and while I might try to convince you that you should be as well, I would never expect you - or anyone else - to actually do so. Its just a part of the "code" by which I feel comfortable living my life.

    Hopefully that makes sense...
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

  10. #144
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    It makes perfect sense. And I believe so strongly in protecting the lives, freedoms, and property of others that I've been protecting them professionally for 17 years...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  11. #145
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    It makes perfect sense. And I believe so strongly in protecting the lives, freedoms, and property of others that I've been protecting them professionally for 17 years...
    I'm glad to see that - when I really, really try hard, and take 6 or 7 stabs at it - I can eventually craft a written statement that actually conveys the meaning I intended and that it makes sense to someone else!

    Seriously, thank you. Have a great evening!
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

  12. #146
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Somebody gave up his address, and some protesters showed up, only to clash with a much larger group of counter protesters...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_TjftnwhRk

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...o/5346606.html

    Protest over slain burglars takes a confrontational turn
    Supporters of Pasadena man who shot two try to drown out Quanell X rally

    By JENNIFER LEAHY
    Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle
    Pasadena protests collide Dec. 2

    Activist Quanell X and dozens of other protesters Sunday faced hundreds of homeowners and supporters of Joe Horn, the Pasadena man who shot and killed two men he suspected of burglarizing a neighbor's home more than two weeks ago.

    Families of the slain men, Miguel Antonio DeJesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, also were present.

    Yard signs lined the 7400 block of Timberline in Pasadena, where the incident took place, as well as on nearby streets.

    Residents and Horn supporters waved American flags and carried signs reading, "We love our neighbor for protecting our neighbors" and "Burglary is a risky business."

    Motorcyclist Aaron "Blowout" Morrow, 43, and dozens of his fellow bikers lined Timberline, loudly revving their engines each time Quanell X attempted to speak.

    "I support our rights as Americans to protect ourselves and support our Second Amendment rights," Morrow said.

    Quanell X, who said he is not certain the shooting was racially motivated, said he "wouldn't be surprised" after Sunday afternoon's events.

    "Our protesters were peaceful in spite of racial slurs," he said.

    Some attendees screamed "USA! USA!" when Quanell X tried to speak while others booed the activist.

    Numerous Pasadena police officers were on hand during the confrontation as were members of the SERT, Special Event Response Team, in riot gear but no arrests were made.

    "I just can't believe that we've got a race riot going on in our neighborhood," said Michelle Howell, who lives several doors down from Horn.

    "First of all, this is a quiet place, secondly we've got neighbors of all different races. This has nothing to do with race."

    Quanell X has called for Horn, who is white, to be charged with murder for shooting DeJesus and Ortiz, who were black.

    "Our position is that we do not condone their actions. We condemn their actions," Quanell X said. "But Horn acted as police officer, judge, jury and executioner all at the same time."

    Maritza Munoz marched with the members of the New Black Panther Nation.

    "Yes, they broke into people's houses, but it wasn't his right to kill them. What he (Horn) did was criminal," she said.

    Carrie West grabbed a bullhorn and taunted Quanell X during his second formal attempt to address the crowd and media.

    "We're just citizens standing up for another citizen who chose to protect himself," West said.

    Supporters came from as far away as Onalaska and from all corners of Harris County.

    Many took photographs and videos of the event. Most were outraged at the protest of Horn and the insinuation that race played a factor in the shooting.

    Hundreds signed the back of signs that read "I support Joe Horn" with bluebonnets and a Texas flag in the background.

    "It's really simple — don't break into people's houses and you won't get shot," said Kim Jackson, who waved an American flag while yelling "Go home" at members of the New Black Panther Nation.

    Horn, 61, shot DeJesus and Ortiz on Nov. 14 after telling police he saw them steal from a neighbor's home. Horn told a 911 operator that he intended to confront and shoot the men.

    The blinds were closed at the Horn home Sunday and two "No trespassing" signs were on the lawn. One noted "Violators will be prosecuted."

    It has not been determined if Horn will face charges for the homicides.

    "We will be turning the case over to the Harris County District Attorney's Office in 7-10 days, and at that point it's out of our hands," Pasadena police spokesman Vance Mitchell said Sunday evening.
    Last edited by paramedic70002; December 4th, 2007 at 11:47 AM. Reason: fixed bad link
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  13. #147
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    Wow.... I can't believe I'm more on the side of "Quannel X" than "Blowout Morrow..." I never thought I'd see the day...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  14. #148
    Member Array abuttermilk's Avatar
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    Gosh I hope that was said in jest! Did you read the one about the guy in the motel in Georgia? Studying for a promotional exam. When is it going to stop? When we get enough backbone to change some laws and stand up for ourselves.
    We can only do it by speaking out, just as was done in Pasadena, and protecting ourselves.
    Was the one in Georgia over property?
    If you are against what Mr. Horn did, remember it when the shoe is put on your foot!
    "It does not take a majority to prevail,,,,,,but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." Samuel Adams

  15. #149
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    I do and will remember it. Attention all readers: Do not, under any circumstances, ever announce your intention to kill two people over my stuff to a police dispatcher, and then go forth and kill two people who are leaving my empty house with a bag full of my stuff. Ever. Please.

    Is that enough shoe on enough foot? Here's a question - how many of you would be Charles Bronsons have ever killed another human being? I think it might, just might, give you another perspective...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  16. #150
    Member Array Sam Douthit's Avatar
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    This should slow down robberies for a while. I understand that some are trying to make a racial issue out of it. Does this mean you can only shoot certain races and not others? If the burglers were of my race I would not defend them.
    Sambo74
    SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM

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