Man Shoots Burglars: PASADENA, TX: MERGED - Page 13

Man Shoots Burglars: PASADENA, TX: MERGED

This is a discussion on Man Shoots Burglars: PASADENA, TX: MERGED within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by OPFOR So, had someone murdered my grandparents (who were here illegally for a short while), it would have been good to go? ...

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  1. #181
    Distinguished Member Array P7fanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    So, had someone murdered my grandparents (who were here illegally for a short while), it would have been good to go? Again, I am very much against illegal immigration, but it's not a capital crime. And Horn had no way of knowing their immigration status in any case...

    And wait a minute - were they black, or were they Honduran? Both, perhaps? Maybe the wrong group of protesters were out there!
    Oh come now. Bill O'Reilly mentioned no such thing. Bill has just recently come around 150 degrees in his thinking on illegal alien immigration to be more in line with the American people, that's all.
    In fact now he's now proposing withholding federal funding to Sanctuary cities like Houston that are skirting, ignoring and frankly violating the immigration laws. Something that I have been speaking of for over 2 years now. And as far as I'm concerned, Los Angelas, Houston and Austin (my home town) should be first on the list. He's simply stating that if the immigration laws were being enforced by our federal government and local governments, many of these illegals would not be on the streets to commit the crimes that they are committing.

    A clear majority of Americans, including legal immigrant Americans are fed up with the lax actions being taken concerning the illegal alien problem. Jobs are being lost, hospitals are going in the red and closing, public schools are overcrowded and if the Dems have their way, funds from our broken Social Security system will be going to illegals also..... I could go on and on.

    As far as Joe Horn in Pasadena goes, I believe he just reached a boiling point. I really don't think he wanted to do what he did and I'm sure he regrets having to do it. And the two burglars, I thought it at the time, but now it is fact that they were illegal aliens that were being protected by the local Houston Santuary policies. Miguel Antonio DeJesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, were both from Columbia. DeJesus was trying to get a Texas drivers license with a Puerto Rican ID. But DeJesus isn't even his real name, it's Hernando Riascos-Torres. His fiance says he was a 'good-hearted person'.

    In 1954 President Eisenhower attacked the illegal alien problem in the SW United States. This is how he did it.

    Operation Wetback from Wikipedia
    The operation began in California and Arizona and coordinated 1,075 Border Patrol agents along with state and local police agencies to mount an aggressive crackdown, going as far as police sweeps of Mexican-American neighborhoods and random stops and ID checks of "Mexican-looking" people in a region with many Native Americans and native Hispanics.[2] In some cases, illegal immigrants were deported along with their American-born children, who were by law U.S. citizens. The agents used a wide brush in their criteria for interrogating potential aliens. They adopted the practice of stopping "Mexican-looking" citizens on the street and asking for identification. 750 agents targeted agricultural areas with a goal of 1000 apprehensions a day. By the end of July, over 50,000 aliens were caught in the two states. Around 488,000 people fled the country for fear of being apprehended. By September, 80,000 had been taken into custody in Texas, and the INS estimates that 500,000-700,000 people had left Texas voluntarily. To discourage re-entry, buses and trains took many people deep within Mexico before being set free. Tens of thousands more were put aboard two hired ships, the Emancipation and the Mercurio. The ships ferried them from Port Isabel, Texas, to Veracruz, Mexico, more than 500 miles (800 kilometers) south.

    In 1986 D.C. provided amnesty to over 4 million illegals. Reagan said the border needs to be secured. Congress passed new sweeping laws and promised us they would never ask us to provide amnesty to illegals again. But they refuse to make sure the laws they enacted are enforced. So now we've got 20 million more.

    Where do we draw the line?
    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson

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  2. #182
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    OK - back on topic (a little, anyway). Where did this info about these long criminal records and prior deportations come out? Admittedly, I haven't been following this as closely as some of you, so it's very possibly that I missed it. The last I heard, one had no record and one had a single very minor violation.

    I don't see how race, ethnicity, country of origin, immigration status, or anything else enters into it, unless we are saying it's OK to kill people over these things - and, keep in mind, Mr. Horn did not ask to see a passport or green card before he shot, so he had no way of knowing the latter two in any case. He also had no way of knowing if these were altar boys retrieving a box of holy wafers from their priest's house at his request....

    We can only judge this incident on what actually happened, with the facts known to the participants at the time. Mr. Horn had very strong suspicions that his neighbors, who weren't at home, were being burglarized. He decided (and stated) that he wasn't going to let them get away with it, and that he was going to kill them - despite the fact that no one was ever in any danger (in point of fact, and to the best of Mr. Horn's knowledge). He then proceded to leave a position of safety, go and secure his firearm, and return to a position of safety (again, no one in danger). He then realized that the suspected burglars were leaving (again, no danger, and the potential for danger on the way out of the area), so he left his position of safety and intervened. We don't know for sure what happened next, except that the two men that Mr. Horn said he was going to kill did, in fact, get killed.

    We draw the line at murder. At least, I do.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  3. #183
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=P7fanatic;549376]Oh come now. Bill O'Reilly mentioned no such thing. Bill has just recently come around 150 degrees in his thinking on illegal alien immigration to be more in line with the American people, that's all.
    In fact now he's now proposing withholding federal funding to Sanctuary cities like Houston that are skirting, ignoring and frankly violating the immigration laws. Something that I have been speaking of for over 2 years now. And as far as I'm concerned, Los Angelas, Houston and Austin (my home town) should be first on the list. He's simply stating that if the immigration laws were being enforced by our federal government and local governments, many of these illegals would not be on the streets to commit the crimes that they are committing.
    QUOTE]

    Forget the sanctuary cities. It is not the cities responsibility to enforce our border security. We have a sanctuary nation. I have a client that is an ICE agent, and after talking to him, it is truely rediculous at how little attempt is being made to secure our country. I suggest you all find someone that deals with this issue on a daily basis, and have a 20 minute talk with them. You will be amazed at how stupidly the whole thing is being handled. Judges see the people picked up, then are required to let them leave unless they have committed a felony. dumb, dumb, dumb. It can not be blamed on the cities mayors or anyone other than the President and Congress themselves.

    As far as Mr. Horn goes, I am sure that he didn't know they were illegal or not. I have never seen any illegals wearing a arm band with an "I" on it or any other thing to denote they were not legal. Based on his statements, however incriminating some may think they are, there is no basis for any racial or nationality claim of prejudice. He was protecting his neighbors property from burgalars.
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  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Forget the sanctuary cities. It is not the cities responsibility to enforce our border security. We have a sanctuary nation. I have a client that is an ICE agent, and after talking to him, it is truely rediculous at how little attempt is being made to secure our country. I suggest you all find someone that deals with this issue on a daily basis, and have a 20 minute talk with them. You will be amazed at how stupidly the whole thing is being handled. Judges see the people picked up, then are required to let them leave unless they have committed a felony. dumb, dumb, dumb. It can not be blamed on the cities mayors or anyone other than the President and Congress themselves.
    I agree with you totally in that the prez is doing nothing to address the flow of illegals into the country. Worse, congress is not making sure the laws they enacted in '86 are enforced.
    What I was saying is that it is fact that the Mayors and city councils of Sanctary cities are actively violating federal law by harboring and protecting the illegals in their jurisdiction. Going so far as to basically inviting them to their citiies saying they will be safe there. They also restrict their LEO from even asking the status of people that are stopped.
    This is a national problem that requires all to assist fixing it. Yet we have some cities actively trying to make things worse.


    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson

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  5. #185
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P7fanatic View Post
    [/B]. Going so far as to basically inviting them to their citiies saying they will be safe there. They also restrict their LEO from even asking the status of people that are stopped.
    This is a national problem that requires all to assist fixing it. Yet we have some cities actively trying to make things worse.


    I don't know of any cities that are inviting them to come, or who are hindering the Federal Government from enforcing the immigration laws. Can you in fact when pulled over prove your citizenship? I don't carry my birth certificate with me. Again, it is not the duty of any local law enforcement to engage in the enforcement of immigration laws. By the way, in 86 it was Reagan that signed the amnesty bill that made the problem worse. This doesn't need to be a political debate. But the facts are the facts.

    Edited: Congress is not the one that enforces the laws on immigration. That currently is under the Homeland Security, and is part of the Executive Branch, before it was incorporated into the Homeland security it was still under the executive branch, and the President and people working for him were in charge of carrying out enforcment of the immigration laws. Congress had oversight, but was not responsible for enforcement.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  6. #186
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    From todays Houston Chronicle,
    Diego Ortiz, one of two men shot by Pasadena homeowner Joe Horn.
    Chronicle file
    PLAY | BACK | NEXT


    Dec. 7, 2007, 1:23AM
    2 shot in Pasadena here illegally
    1 man had been deported in '99; officials looking at possible ties to a burglary ring


    By ROBERT CROWE
    Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

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    Pasadena protests collide Two burglary suspects shot by a Pasadena homeowner last month were illegal immigrants from Colombia, and one man had been deported nearly 10 years ago, authorities said Thursday.

    Authorities also said they are investigating whether Diego Ortiz, 30, and Hernando Riascos Torres, 48, were part of a crime ring linked to burglaries and the use of fake immigration documents.

    The two — killed by a Pasadena man Nov. 14 after he said they were trying to steal his neighbor's property — were in the country illegally, according to Leticia Zamarripa, a spokeswoman for the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

    Joe Horn, 61, shot Ortiz and Torres, who went by the alias Miguel Antonio DeJesus. Horn called police after hearing breaking glass. He ignored an operator's warning to not go outside with his gun.

    Pasadena Police Department Capt. A.H. "Bud" Corbett said Torres was deported to Colombia in 1999 after a 1994 cocaine-related conviction. He was on parole until 2017, Corbett said.

    Police found a Puerto Rican identification card on Ortiz. He had two aliases.

    Torres had identification cards from Colombia, Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic. He had three aliases.

    State and federal authorities are investigating whether the two men, who lived in southwest Houston, were involved in the crime ring, Corbett said.

    Police found almost $2,000 in cash in a white bag the men allegedly took from the home in the 7400 block of Timberline before Horn shot them.

    Investigators also are trying to determine whether the men knew about the home or family before burglarizing it.

    "I don't believe the victim was a random choice ... but there's no evidence of a relationship either," between the homeowners and suspects, Corbett said.

    Horn told the operator that he did not know his neighbors well. Neighbors said the family moved into the home next to Horn's house about four months ago.

    "I can't comment," a woman at the home said over the phone Thursday night.

    A source told police that Ortiz and Torres burglarized the home, in part, because the homeowners were immigrants.

    "They targeted foreign-born people," Corbett said. "They felt they were easier victims."

    Little is known about the homeowners, who have Vietnamese surnames.

    Neighbors said they own a small business near their Village Grove East subdivision.

    Records filed with the Office of the Secretary of State of Texas show that the family owns a dry cleaning business on Fairmont Parkway.

    Horn has received an outpouring of support from some neighbors, friends and strangers, but the incident also has outraged activists and other neighbors.

    Activists and Horn supporters clashed Sunday when they staged dueling protests outside his home. The homeowners association is trying to prevent more protests from being held in the subdivision.

    Chronicle reporter Susan Carroll contributed to this report.

    robert.crowe@chron.com
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  7. #187
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    A source told police that Ortiz and Torres burglarized the home, in part, because the homeowners were immigrants.

    "They targeted foreign-born people," Corbett said. "They felt they were easier victims."

    Little is known about the homeowners, who have Vietnamese surnames.


    Ok, now who was making claims that something was racially motivated. Sounds like the pot is calling the kettle black or some nonsense like that.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  8. #188
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    Thanks for the update, mcp. It does sound more and more like these were generally bad folks. Doesn't change my opinion of what Mr. Horn actually did, of course, because he didn't know any of this, but it is interesting.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  9. #189
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Any timne OPFOR, I have also heard that DPS is now involved and the Texas Rangers might take the whole thing over. I don't know if that is to take pressure of the locals in case it is decided charges against Horn are warranted or if it is to pursue the possible ongoing operations of this alleged "ring".
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    I'm a little late to the party, as usual, but I thought I would chime in on this.

    I feel that the lives lost in this, were unfortunate, but no real value to society. My mother is a legal immigrant from England so I have my own biased opionion of anyone who is here illegally. Only reason people should have the protection of our laws is when they come here under a valid visa (either up to 6 months on a passport, or filing for another appropriate visa). They were here illegally so my opinion, fwiw, Horn should get off with a technicality, even though he didn't know at the time they were illegals. I do think he should lose his right to have any firearm what-so-ever since he has shown that he cannot use them responsibly.

    My problems with Mr. Horn is that he, according to the reports I have read, shot two unarmed men in the back. He told an officer who was taking the 911 call that he was going to kill them and disobeyed the officer's explicit directions to stay inside. That is premeditation and that is a crime. Will a Texas jury ever convict him of this? I really doubt it. Even though the law is rather explicit saying that his neighbor needed to tell him to protect his property for him and there seems to be no communication between the two parties in that sense.

    This is just more ammo for the anti's, I'm going to go buy more guns while I still can, protect myself and my property. I got enough cameras in my house I'll record the mofo's robbing the house while I talk to the police.

    That being said, you can never guess where the police are at around here. I'm in a town only about 4 square miles, I am 3 minutes down the road from the police station yet they have never made it to my plan in less than 17 minutes. I have no faith in the police which is why I chose to arm myself, however, if it comes down to choosing to put myself in harms way vs. a copper... I'll let the coppers try and earn their tax money.
    Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, Article 1, Section 21:
    "The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned."

  11. #191
    Distinguished Member Array CT-Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    I don't know of any cities that are inviting them to come, or who are hindering the Federal Government from enforcing the immigration laws.
    I do. Do some reading about illegal aliens in New Haven, CT:

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/artic...107230060/1002

    This all started when INS rounded up a bunch of illegals in New Haven. There was such a public outcry that they were all released. I believe it was a ploy by the mayor to curry favor with hispanic voters in the city. I could have my head up my arse as well though.
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