Man Shoots Burglars: PASADENA, TX: MERGED - Page 3

Man Shoots Burglars: PASADENA, TX: MERGED

This is a discussion on Man Shoots Burglars: PASADENA, TX: MERGED within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I'm sure somewhere an gun control advocate is puking right now if they have heard of this incident. I wouldn't have said much to police ...

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  1. #31
    Senior Member Array Skygod's Avatar
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    I'm sure somewhere an gun control advocate is puking right now if they have heard of this incident.

    I wouldn't have said much to police or the dispatcher. Just that two men where approaching my residence after I witnessed them in the commission of a felony and that I thought they may have deadly weapons. "Help, please come quickly, they are here"

    Rack, Boom!! Rack, Boom!!

    It may not hold up in a court of law here in Kentucky even under the adoption of the castle doctrine, especially if the DA is a bit on the liberal side and the family of the now deceased bottom feeders cry in front of a camera a couple of time. Maybe they were illegals, or I'm sorry "Undocumented immigrants"

    Keep feeding the news Fox, and I'm all for grandpa pumping his shotty into some low life pond scum. Justice was swift and no need for the tax payers to pay for legal representation and 3 hots and a cot.
    Perhaps your sole purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    This is NOT a matter of crying over some "low life bottom feeders". It is about common sense and following Law Enforcement orders. Now he regrets it. This man should not even own a weapon if his common sense is this limited.
    How did he get his weapons since it is kept in his truck because his daughter "doesn't allow it in the house". Maybe she knows something about dear old dad that we don't. He called the police and was being a good witness. Why did he need to go out and confront them? I don't think I can buy that the BG were advancing on him...not the way the shots came. He was TOLD NOT TO GO OUT. His response was, "I'm gonna kill em". This guy gives the gun control zealots ammo they need to make all of us look like over reactors...blood thirsty....non thinking brutes. I STILL think he needs a couple of years in prision....not for killing some scum....but for being STUPID.
    A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
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  3. #33
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    I have to disagree, Skygod. Self defense is just that, defense of the self. If you are not in danger, killing for things is murder, legality aside. Especially since they weren't even his things, they weren't at his house, there was no mention of weapons, he expressed an intent to kill before confronting them, and so on and so on. I think this guy will set us as responsible (and not bloodthirsty) gun owners back quite a bit, in the long run... JMHO, of course, but burglary won't get you the chair (even in Texas), so it's hard to see how extra-judicial execution is warranted...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  4. #34
    Member Array jcheinaman's Avatar
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  5. #35
    Senior Member Array Bob O's Avatar
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    I believe he did the RIGHT thing, but was LEGALLY wrong.

    Justice was done, but unfortunately, the good guy might have to pay a big price for it.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other"
    ~John Adams

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit51 View Post
    This is NOT a matter of crying over some "low life bottom feeders". It is about common sense and following Law Enforcement orders. Now he regrets it. This man should not even own a weapon if his common sense is this limited.
    How did he get his weapons since it is kept in his truck because his daughter "doesn't allow it in the house". Maybe she knows something about dear old dad that we don't. He called the police and was being a good witness. Why did he need to go out and confront them? I don't think I can buy that the BG were advancing on him...not the way the shots came. He was TOLD NOT TO GO OUT. His response was, "I'm gonna kill em". This guy gives the gun control zealots ammo they need to make all of us look like over reactors...blood thirsty....non thinking brutes. I STILL think he needs a couple of years in prision....not for killing some scum....but for being STUPID.
    +12 Gauge

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  7. #37
    Member Array Hoytshooter's Avatar
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    I think the grand jury is going to have some major problems with this one. On one hand what he did is legal by TX law, maybe, and he probably took out a couple of BGs who probably had pretty good rap sheets. On the other hand he came right out and told the 9-1-1 operator he was going to get his shotgun and kill somebody which, in my book, makes it premeditated. While it is true he said they broke the window with a crowbar, a deadly weapon, nothing is said about either of them having it in their hands when they exited the house or if it was used to threaten him. Plus he admits he has to go out to his truck to get the shotgun those purposely possibly putting himself in harms way.

    The 'maybe' about being legal comes because the way I read the law on a third party's property makes his case look mighty slim. The caller says he knows nothing about this neighbor, which means they couldn't have asked him to look after their property while they were away, which is a requirement under TX law.

    Since he doesn't even know this neighbor he doesn't even think of the possibility they might come out of the house with something more deadly than a crowbar. For all he knew this neighbor could be a BG and had a cache of weapons, which maybe these BGs knew about.

    While this may have been a "good" shooting in that it took a couple of BGs off the street in all other respects it stinks. I have a feeling if this guy wants to escape some prison time he'd better find a way to call Johnny Cochran back from whereever he is spending eternity. I really feel sorry for what his family, because of what he has put them through.

  8. #38
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    You know, I am still getting used to Texas. I much prefer the laws here to what I had to deal with in Maryland. But I am still trying to wrap my head around this one. This guy comes off to me as someone who was waiting for an opportunity like this to come up, and this day he hit the daily double. There are just too many inconsistancies in his story and on the tape.
    OPFOR, I too think that this guy crossed a line, but I have to remind myself that there is a different mindset here in Texas than what I was dealing with back in the PRM. Texas law does not limit deadly force to self defense situations. As the deputy that taught my class explained, If I catch you stealing the stereo out of truck in the middle of the night, the type of insurance I have can determine if it is legal for me to shoot you! If I only have liability I can legally shoot you (if necessary)to recover my property. If I have full coverage and my insurance company would cover the theft I can not shoot! If this was after dark Mr. Horn could have shot these two and not even needed to claim self defense as justification! I think it is going to come down to the forensics on this case. If they were in his yard and/or moving towards him I think he will walk. If not, I think he bought himself a world of trouble.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  9. #39
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Hoyt,

    Reference the multiple links providing news info.
    The two guys he shot neither had long rap sheets with one just a prior for refusing to ID himself to an officer and the other was clear.
    These guys weren't exactly hardened criminals graduates cum laude of gladiator academy.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  10. #40
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    I was just thinking about this a little more, trying to rationalize Mr. Horns actions. This is all speculation, but......
    What if there had been a series of break ins in his neighborhood previous to this? We have an "elderly" man, and we do not know his physical condition. Maybe he had reason to believe that his house would be next. That could explain his fearing for his safety when they were still in the neighbors house. Not knowing the response time for the police in that area, would it have been more tactically sound for him to choose the ground he engaged them on? Would it make more sense for him to engage them out in the yard as opposed to waiting for them to actually enter the closed confines of his home? If I was his lawyer I would definitely play this angle to the jury.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  11. #41
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    MCP,

    If you listen to the 911 tape Horn clearly states that this kind of thing does not happen in his neighborhood.
    He stated that twice to the operator, who first advised and then later directly told him thrice to stay put and not go outside to engage the perps.
    Further it makes no sense what so ever to leave the safety of ones locked door home to go outside and enagage robbers on some other persons property...as you are on the phone with 911, cops are literally minutes away, and there is no imminent threat of danger to onesself nor are there any other persons in jeopardy at the home that is actually being robbed. If he truly was in fear as you suggest in your scenario then the obvious first choice is not to run outside and go singlehandedly to yell to the BGs who do not know that you are there; "Hey guys hi look at me!!". You stay your behind behind hard cover if not concealment, as he had been, and await the cavalry. Especially so if you are a not so fit 60 yr. old (which is not elderly) alone with no backup, no radio, and no police powers.

    There is no justifying Horn's actions and your suggested scenario doesn't fit this case.
    As to Mr. Horn he has now stupidly placed his entire life, savings, accumulated familial wealth, good name, and future time on the balance all because he couldn't act right, think right,follow direction & excellent advice from the 911 operator, and he had a hard on to apply his own personal sense of street justice to save his neighbors the loss of a few baubles all of which are insured and replaceable...unlike those two BGs lives or to Mr. Horn more importantly his entire life, savings, accumulated familial wealth, good name, and future time.

    Win,lose,or draw, however his case pans out this should serve as a lesson for us all.

    - Janq

    "Somebody's life is worth more than property." - TX 911 Operator
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Janq, Like I said I was just trying to understand what this guys motivation could be other than simply wanting to drop the hammer on someone.
    I not only listened to the 9-1-1 tape I even sent the link to the training manager at my old comm center to show rookies how even when you do everything right, as this call taker did, some people just wont listen. But one thing that has me raising an eyebrow is everyone talking about how police were only minutes away. From personal experience I can tell everyone that we dont really know how many minutes away they are. I remember you mentioning have lived in the DC area in the past, so you probably will have a greater appreciation for what I am saying than most. I took a burglary in progress from a lady out near Brighton Dam one night. I could hear the guy kicking the door over the phone. The closest unit was responding from Georgia avenue and the beltway. Running lights and siren it took him fifteen minutes to get there. I have had an officer in a fight off of Briggs Chaney road and 29 and the closest backup was at Montrose and 270. It is rare, but stuff like this happens. All it takes to effectively wipe out a small department some days is a shoplifter, a couple of fender benders and a patient judge in traffic court. At night two drunks will cost you five officers for the better part of an hour.
    Yes he said that sort of thing doesn't happen in that neighborhood. But he is living with his daughter now. What do we know of his life experience prior to moving in with her? I am not excusing what he did. I am just trying to think of something that would lead him to make the decisions he made other than just wanting to kill someone. And it isn't easy.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  13. #43
    Senior Member Array Fragman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoytshooter View Post
    The 'maybe' about being legal comes because the way I read the law on a third party's property makes his case look mighty slim. The caller says he knows nothing about this neighbor, which means they couldn't have asked him to look after their property while they were away, which is a requirement under TX law.
    Not exactly, it isn't a requirement. It just removes the night-time provision.

    Read the code again. The important word to look out for is 'Or'.

    His only LEGAL stumbling block is the time of day. But as for if it was righr thing to do, thats another matter.

    I will add two points to ponder though.

    1) He wasn't arrested.
    2) We only know what the media reported. We don't know what he SAW. Did they try to rush him? The transcript doesn't say.

  14. #44
    Senior Member Array Fragman's Avatar
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    Something else

    As I have said earlier, legal and right are not necessarily the same thing.

    Here is how I see it. If you really, truly believe that you were right in shooting, you would be thankful that you DID shoot, not wishing you didn't.

    Please note. thats NOT the same thing as being glad that the situation happened. You could forever wish that you were never put into that situation, but if you regretting having fired in a given situation, then maybe, maybe, deep down you know there was an alternative.

  15. #45
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    MCP,

    I'm hearing ya and understand.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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