Man Shoots Burglars: PASADENA, TX: MERGED

This is a discussion on Man Shoots Burglars: PASADENA, TX: MERGED within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; This has been under discussion for days with multiple links from multiple sources toward coverage ofthis event including the very much damning 911 tape; http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ad.php?t=35636 ...

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Thread: Man Shoots Burglars: PASADENA, TX: MERGED

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    This has been under discussion for days with multiple links from multiple sources toward coverage ofthis event including the very much damning 911 tape; http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ad.php?t=35636

    This dude is in deep trouble and it's largely due to his own actions, not that of the BGs he happened to witness.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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  3. #62
    Member Array abuttermilk's Avatar
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    So are the burglars criminals? So as long as it's property, it is okay to steal? So how long before you guys realize that the BGs already know your attitude and are ready to take your property.
    They are criminals and as soon as the criminals learn that they will get killed for being thieves and burglars and criminals, they will find another line of work! When did we all get so gutless that we all cave in to a criminal because it is property? It is MY property and I have three jobs and I paid for my property and they can do the same. What has happened to our country when we have to let a criminal escape because it is property/ What about PRINCIPLE???????

  4. #63
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Buttermilk,

    The BGs were not on or robbing the shooters own property.

    They were doing so at the home of a neighbor and he took it upon himself to leave from his own homes locked door to go out and confront them to "kill them" against the wise advisories of the 911 operator.

    Listen to the tape.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #64
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Buttermilk,

    The BGs were not on or robbing the shooters own property.

    They were doing so at the home of a neighbor and he took it upon himself to leave from his own homes locked door to go out and confront them to "kill them" against the wise advisories of the 911 operator.

    Listen to the tape.

    - Janq
    He might have a better chance in court had he not run his mouth like an idiot to be taped by the 911 operator.

  6. #65
    Member Array abuttermilk's Avatar
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    Janq,
    It would make no difference to me whose property the thieves were on. They are criminals. Do we give our homes, neighborhoods and towns to thugs just because they are taking property? Wouldn't you like to have a neighbor that would protect your interests that well? Why should a "Good Guy" be in fear of going to prison for stopping BGs that are burglarizing a house in their neighborhood?
    Why do criminals have so many rights to do illegal, criminal things and "Good Guys" have to cower in their homes and watch it happen and fear going to prison for doing the right thing?
    The Supreme Court has held numerous times that the police are not here to protect you and I.
    Therefore,,,,,,say it with me again, I am responsible for my and my familys' protection and I consider my property in the equation.
    Maybe it is time for us "Good Guys" to start changing the thinking and the laws and give good, honest, hard working, people their rights back. Maybe, if we use the example of the media;( say it over and over again until people believe it), it is time for us "Good Guys" to use that tactic and put this country back on its' feet so we don't have to be cowering like chickens behind locked doors and "giving" our properties to criminals.
    If a rattlesnake is going to bite you and possibly kill you, do you lose your life because you are worried about that snakes rights? What is the difference? The more the criminals succeed, the bolder they get as was seen in New Orleans. When does it stop? When the criminals own this country?
    Wha t has happened to our backbone?

  7. #66
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Buttermilk,

    What is the difference between a bad guy and a good guy?

    Before you answer that though take a read of this;

    The United States of America 'Bill of Rights', Fifth Amendment to The U.S. Constitution

    "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..."

    Source - http://www.archives.gov/national-arc...ranscript.html
    The law and our Constitution which we all are expected to abide by has backbone, even if at singular specific times it seems to be made of cartilage which might be distasteful to some.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    I think this case is showing something about ourselves. There is a bit of a cultural divide here. In the vast majority of this country (to the best of my knowledge) deadly force is limited strictly to self defense. A great many of us have grown up in this culture. As I wrote to some of my former coworkers, Texas and Maryland in some ways are on different planets. Officers here are regularly quoted in the papers saying things that would have my old Chief having kittens. Here officers speak of "heroic action" by armed citizens for shooting the bad guy holding up the convenience store. Back there our department would never endorse something like that and would refer to him as "the wreckless vigilante that endangered the community by firing his weapon in a populated area. "
    Back in Maryland if I caught you breaking into my truck at three in the morning all I could do would be call 9-1-1 and hope there was a unit in service close enough to get there before you drove off. Here, I am perfectly within my rights to draw down on you, and I can also legally shoot you to prevent your escape! I can articulate exactly the same thing here and get an "atta boy" from the Sheriff as I could to a jury in Maryland and get twenty years. Here in Texas the attitude seems to be much of being responsible for your own little part of the world where back in Maryland the theme was take responsibility and as soon as you see something wrong call the government to send someone out to fix it.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  9. #68
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abuttermilk View Post
    What has happened to our country when we have to let a criminal escape because it is property/ What about PRINCIPLE???????
    By suggesting that a death sentence for theft isn't warranted (assuming mere theft [and not assault] is indeed what occurred in that scenario), nobody's suggesting that criminals must be allowed to go free, do what they will, run roughshod over anyone. Quite the contrary is true.

    Principle? Suggesting that a field death sentence is a suitable penalty for theft/burglary? The principle involved that keeps the wolves at bay on that score is the "Golden Rule," at the core, or more commonly the principle of cruel and unusual punishments, disallowing punishments that are so disjoint from the crime as to defy credence. Death for theft? By what standard is that justified?

    I'm all for stopping crime, but doling out death isn't the only response possible. I'm all for disallowing harm to come to myself or my family, no matter what is required to ensure that. However, in order to retain my honor as a human being and citizen, any response I make must of necessity fall short of passing death sentences on people who engage in low-grade, non-threatening crimes. But that's just me.

    In the end, yes, it's going to come to an unraveling of the inane and hateful laws that cast lawful citizens as criminals for defending their own. I'm strongly in favor of that. And so long as so many criminals choose to fuel the growing tide of horrific actions against citizens, then it's going to be a tough road walked by people who try to hold onto what they have (things, life, honor, principles). It would surely help if the A.R. politicians and judges would simply pull the head out and enforce the appropriate sentences against criminals. That takes cojones and funding, equally. Where do I sign ...
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  10. #69
    Distinguished Member Array P7fanatic's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    I think this case is showing something about ourselves. There is a bit of a cultural divide here.
    As I wrote to some of my former coworkers, Texas and Maryland in some ways are on different planets.

    Here officers speak of "heroic action" by armed citizens for shooting the bad guy holding up the convenience store. Back there our department would never endorse something like that and would refer to him as "the wreckless vigilante that endangered the community by firing his weapon in a populated area."

    Back in Maryland if I caught you breaking into my truck at three in the morning all I could do would be call 9-1-1 and hope there was a unit in service close enough to get there before you drove off. Here, I am perfectly within my rights to draw down on you, and I can also legally shoot you to prevent your escape! I can articulate exactly the same thing here and get an "atta boy" from the Sheriff as I could to a jury in Maryland and get twenty years.

    Here in Texas the attitude seems to be much of being responsible for your own little part of the world where back in Maryland the theme was take responsibility and as soon as you see something wrong call the government to send someone out to fix it.
    What I see is you think Texas believes in the right of one to defend oneself and his property and to take responsibility for himself, whereas Maryland is more of a nanny state.
    Sort of makes me think of DC with it's nanny state attitude, it's desire to have total control over it's citizens and it's belief that no law abiding person should have the right to defend theirself.

    I choose Texas.


    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson

    "Liberalism is a Mental Disorder." -Michael Savage

    GOOD Gun Control is being able to hit your target! -Myself

  11. #70
    Member Array falkon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Bingo CCW ^^

    Things are not always they might seem or appear and one has to be cautious and reserved when it comes to as much toward persons on property not your own not doing things that are very obviously unlawful. Even if they are there is still judgement toward calling the police and being a good witness or if there is life, or where lawful livestock in danger, taking action.

    - Janq plans to return the ladder this weekend
    This is why I would only use deadly force to protect my life or the life of a loved one.
    There are 10 types of people in the world:
    Those who understand binary, and those that don't.

  12. #71
    Member Array falkon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit51 View Post
    This is NOT a matter of crying over some "low life bottom feeders". It is about common sense and following Law Enforcement orders. Now he regrets it.

    I STILL think he needs a couple of years in prison....not for killing some scum....but for being STUPID.
    Two very good points.

    This would be a good shoot if the two men came over and smash in his window and threatened to kill him with the crowbar.
    There are 10 types of people in the world:
    Those who understand binary, and those that don't.

  13. #72
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    There are a few things here to consider - some have been brought up before, but bear repeating...

    1) The shooter, by his own admission, didn't know the neighbor very well, and had no real way of knowing if this was a true burglary, the repo man, or the neighbor's friends/relatives following the neighbors instructions to "go get my keys, I locked them in the house." Far fetched, perhaps, but not impossible - I've been locked out and had to pry open windows and climb through before.

    2) Assuming they were burglars (and I cede this point -they obviously were), how do they deserve a death sentence from an uninvolved and unthreatened third party? Yes, they were criminals - who among us can say that they have never, ever broken a law? Do you deserve to be shot by a passer-by for speeding? Have your throat slit by a holiday shopper for walking out with a Coke without paying for it? Where is your particular line on what is a capital crime that can be prosecuted by anyone who happens to think that they witnessed it?

    Again, I am all for self defense. I would certainly applaud a neighbor who called the police, was an excellent witness, took down the appropriate information, hell, even took a picture/video if he had the time and the means to do so safely (as this shooter apparently did). I carry, I carry heavy, and I believe so much in protecting the lives and property of others that I choose to do it for a living... But I can not, and will not, accept that it is reasonable for an average person to announce intent to kill, seek out the opportunity to kill, and then to kill - twice - to protect a virtual strangers DVD player. That is not my country, and I'm honestly surprised to see how many of you claim that idea. Perhaps it's poll-worthy...?
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  14. #73
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    ...who among us can say that they have never, ever broken a law? Do you deserve to be shot by a passer-by for speeding? Have your throat slit by a holiday shopper for walking out with a Coke without paying for it? Where is your particular line on what is a capital crime that can be prosecuted by anyone who happens to think that they witnessed it?
    There are two different things to talk about here - breaking a law vs. doing something wrong. I know that as good citizens, we are all supposed to behave as though breaking a law is doing something wrong, but we can all think of situations in which that simply isn't the case. It is clearly against the law to shoot an intruder who is threatening your life if you live in DC, but I believe all of us here would agree that it is not in any way wrong to do so.

    Speeding is another example of something that may be against the law, but is not by itself wrong (my opinion, obviously). Shoplifting, on the other hand, is a property crime, and I for one believe that there would be a lot less crime generally if BGs were worried about getting shot over that can of Coke.

    I am quite confident that, were I in Mr. Horn's position, I would never fire on someone simply for B&E and taking some of my neighbor's possessions. But I would sure be tempted to take my shotgun and place myself in a position where I could make it very clear to the BGs that they needed to put down my neighbor's stuff, kiss the ground, and wait for the police to arrive. If they run, I would not give chase, but if they become aggressive or present weapons of their own, I go into self defense mode and do what it takes to ensure I get to see my family - and my neighbors - again.

    Having said all of that, I believe I would fight that temptation and simply be a good witness. While I believe that what I described above should be completely legal, and taught to youngun's as the way to behave responsibly in a civil society, I recognize that my above described actions have a high probability of landing me in jail in most parts of the country, so I would have complied with the call taker and stayed put.

    I'm not in TX, but were I on Mr. Horn's jury, I'd have a hard time voting to convict...
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

  15. #74
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed Opfor, 100%.

    I too have been locked out of my own home as well as that of my father inlaw.
    In both cases I had to 'break into' the residences and in the case of my father inlaw I went in through a window I knew was unlocked and I later came out with his laptop in hand, which I'd gone there to retrieve to start.
    Had this moron been my father inlaws neighbor he would have run up on me and blasted first. My wife, two kids, parents, sister, and inlaws would be devastated....and this fool would be telling some tale about how he was scared and I made some move toward him.

    As based on posts and positions alot of people in this thread need to refamiliarize themselves with the Fifth Amendment to this countries Constitution along with their family Bible. Folks statements and positions do not reconcile against our laws, the Constitution, nor the Bible be it new, old, or King James versions.

    - Janq values human life and justice above insured replaceable knick knacks
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  16. #75
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    I guess I just disagree with many of you. Burglary is not a capital crime. I am not an extra-judicial executioner. Period.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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