Man Shoots Burglars: PASADENA, TX: MERGED

This is a discussion on Man Shoots Burglars: PASADENA, TX: MERGED within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by OPFOR Burglary is not a capital crime. That's a fact. Texas law notwithstanding, NO property crime justifies the use of deadly force. ...

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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Burglary is not a capital crime.
    That's a fact.

    Texas law notwithstanding, NO property crime justifies the use of deadly force.

    The shooter should be prosecuted.


    When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
    And the women come out to cut up what remains,
    Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
    And go to your God like a soldier.

    Rudyard Kipling


    Terry

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  3. #77
    Senior Member Array redbird's Avatar
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    I see this as a public service killing. It is ashame that the gentleman keep running his mouth but I feel he will be allright in Texas. Does anyone know if these guys had records or if they were amatures? The one part of the tape that may help him is when they came on his property.

  4. #78
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    I believe one had a prior conviction for failing to identify to a LEO, and the other had a clean record.

    While I think the things he said in the 911 call did some damage, I think he will end up ok. TX law allows you to use deadly force to protect someone else's property under certain circumstances.

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  5. #79
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    IIRC one of them had a conviction for failing to identify himself to a peace officer, and I think one might have had a misdemeanor drug charge or public intoxication, but I am not sure. As I understand it neither one had any record of violent crimes or felonies of any type. As far as them coming on his property, I don't know if that has been confirmed or not. All I have seen/heard is his statement after he shot them. I don't know what the forensic examination of the scene has shown. I understand one subject was shot in "the torso" and the other in " the torso and neck". No indication in the reports I have read if they were facing Mr. Horn or not. Seems like there are still some questions to be answered.

    I am kind of reserving judgement on this. I can see valid arguments on both sides. Like I said before I think this illustrates a rift in our culture. Opinions of what is a capital offense are as varied as who is going to win the world series next year. A couple of extreme examples here, OPFOR, I don't how much press this stuff gets anymore, but historically in Brazil a man could kill a woman for questioning his "machismo". In many parts of the world "honor killings" are common place and accepted. In some parts of the world this is a perfectly acceptable response to your wife having an affair, or your daughter getting pregnant out of wedlock. In many countries there is no captial punishment at all, and we as Americans are regarded as moral and intellectual neandrethals for not banning it in our country. Sure, burglary is not a capital crime, but neither is armed robbery! Why do we condemn Mr. Horn, but praise as a "success story" the shooting of bad guys that have displayed weapons but not used them? What of these tactical scenarios like our kid in the drug store and we see bad guys go in? Or we are in the Quikie Mart and the bad guy has his back to us? In these scenarios we have insured corporations that most likely will suffer no real loss from their robbery. A lot of us don't seem to have a problem with someone making a preemptive strike in these scenarios and taking out the bad guys before they shoot any of the employees or the other customers. But since robbery is not a captial crime shouldn't we sit back and hold our fire and wait until the bad guy either injures/kills someone or leaves?

    No disrespect intended OPFOR, but each and every one of us becomes an extra-judicial executioner when we pick up our weapons and head out into the world, or go to check on that bump in the night. If we are not ready to perform that function that weapon we carry may end up being more of a liability to us than an asset. I think the big question is what are we willing to perform that execution for? Some people by occupation are required to seek out situations that may call for lethal action on their part, others like Mr. Horn get into those situations in other ways. I hope I am fortunate enough to never be in a situation like that. If I am not that fortunate, will I handle it differently? I hope so, but I really wont know until it happens.
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  6. #80
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    These types of scenarios always make me think of the following:

    <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
    First They Came for the Jews

    First they came for the Jews
    and I did not speak out
    because I was not a Jew.
    Then they came for the Communists
    and I did not speak out
    because I was not a Communist.
    Then they came for the trade unionists
    and I did not speak out
    because I was not a trade unionist.
    Then they came for me
    and there was no one left
    to speak out for me.

    Pastor Martin Niemöller
    <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

    First they came for my neighbor's house...

    Protecting my neighbor's property as I would my own is the proper way to function in a civil society if we want to keep the society civil. First, doing so makes it more likely that your neighbors are going to look out for your property when you are away. Second, it helps to discourage BGs from coming to my neighborhood in the first place, knowing that there's a good chance an armed homeowner will be there to greet them should they decide to attempt some type of property crime (or worse).

    And no, Janq, I am certainly not saying that, were I your father in-law's neighbor that I'd be coming out guns blazing should I see you "break in" and come out with a laptop. But I'd expect you to at least know my neighbor's first name (which you obviously would in your case) and be able to explain what the situation is.

    I know that robbery is not a capital crime, but neither is it ever acceptable to me to idly sit by and watch a robbery occur where I live. I want the message to get out that the area in which I live is intolerant of this type of criminal behavior and that we are not easy targets. I don't believe I should be nothing more than a 'good witness' if I have the means & opportunity to detain the BGs until the Police can get there.

    In case I haven't made myself clear, this applies only when something like this happens where I live. Its not that theft at the Quickie Mart upsets me any less, but I do not see protecting the Quickie Mart against loss as protecting my family & my home (unless maybe I live next door to the Quickie Mart...). If the BGs think its OK to B&E into my neighbor's home, why is it not OK for them to B&E into mine?

    And to reiterate what I said above, I am fully aware that what I believe is right behavior in this case is not considered legal behavior in many (most?) parts of the country. Since coming home every night is most important to me, that means staying out of jail as well, so I would be very careful to know the local laws where I am before acting on my beliefs. My point is only to state what I believe the correct behavior is, not to state what is in fact legal.

    Having said that, even though I don't know that I could convict Mr. Horn were I on his jury, I certainly feel that he went outside with the intent to fire his shotgun, and not to simply detain the suspects. This is clearly wrong from my point of view and would make what I consider to be a just resolution to a situation the BGs caused, a much harder case to deal with.
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

  7. #81
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adambrock View Post
    I believe one had a prior conviction for failing to identify to a LEO, and the other had a clean record.
    Correct Adam, as reported via news links and stated multiple times in the beginning and middle of the thread.

    These two guys weren't exactly Jesse James and Cole Younger.
    Not defending these guys at all toward what they did, breaking & entering. But last time I checked America hadn't turned to sharia style law where folks get lashed, hands cut off, or killed/murdered in cold blood for as much.
    Funny thign about all this is that the local po-po were on site literally within seconds of dude blasting both burglars down. Had he stayed on the phone and in his home giving intel as the 911 operator had advised and then directed him then he'd not be in such deep dookie and likely would have received positive community recognition for being a good neighbor in the sense of neighborhood watch.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #82
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    dang .45, what they were doing was burglary, not robbery.

    mpc1810 - Brazil has NO death penalty, the maximum sentence for any crime is 30 years. Not even a life sentence here...and no, you can't kill your wife for violating your machismo (and even if it were legal, is that something you're endorsing for the US?)

    And certainly you can see the difference between burglary and armed robbery, right? In one there is NO THREAT TO A HUMAN BEING, in the other there is a real and immediate threat to life. That, of course, changes everything. A BG with a weapon displayed is an immediate and grave threat; a guy LEAVING the scene of a non-violent, property crime is NOT. There is no possible way you can argue that these are moral equivalents when it comes to using deadly force. My child in danger, or even the Quicky-mart guy in danger, is vastly different from some guys Quisinart in danger....

    I really can't believe how many of you are willing to kill for property. Please, if you see someone leaving my house with a bag of silverware, call the cops and be a good witness... I like you guys, I don't want your lives ruined over my STUFF.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  9. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    dang .45, what they were doing was burglary, not robbery.

    mpc1810 - Brazil has NO death penalty, the maximum sentence for any crime is 30 years. Not even a life sentence here...and no, you can't kill your wife for violating your machismo (and even if it were legal, is that something you're endorsing for the US?)

    And certainly you can see the difference between burglary and armed robbery, right? In one there is NO THREAT TO A HUMAN BEING, in the other there is a real and immediate threat to life. That, of course, changes everything. A BG with a weapon displayed is an immediate and grave threat; a guy LEAVING the scene of a non-violent, property crime is NOT. There is no possible way you can argue that these are moral equivalents when it comes to using deadly force. My child in danger, or even the Quicky-mart guy in danger, is vastly different from some guys Quisinart in danger....

    I really can't believe how many of you are willing to kill for property. Please, if you see someone leaving my house with a bag of silverware, call the cops and be a good witness... I like you guys, I don't want your lives ruined over my STUFF.
    it was a very rash act on the part of the shooter.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.”
    ― Thomas Paine

  10. #84
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    OPFOR, I am definitely not endorsing what he did. Nor, am I endorsing honor killings. What I am trying to do is maybe raise some awareness that there is a whole spectrum out there of what is considered "Right" in various cultures and subcultures. The "questioning his manhood" killings I think were outlawed in the 1970's but I understand still happen with some regularity. I also understand that there is not much done as far as punishment.

    Check out the reports from groups like human rights watch and you will be amazed at what is culturally acceptable in some parts of the world. I am not saying our views here are wrong or theirs are right, just that they are different. As far as the scenarios I mentioned, in the drug store one, guys were seen going in and putting on masks. I don't recall seeing any mention of them having weapons. Is simply wearing a mask in an unusual place grounds to shoot someone? As far as the robbery being a threat to life, we have also on this forum praised shootings of BG's armed only with pellet guns. So in that case we don't have a verified threat to life, only a perceived one. In some cases perception is reality. In any given event different people involved will have different perceptions. This is why eyewitness testimony frequently conflicts. These perceptions are shaped by life experiences of the people that are witnessing an event.

    My wife is five foot two, I am six foot four, if you ask us if someone who is six foot is tall, you are probably going to get two different answers. Which one is right? There are some on this forum that have no problem with shooting unarmed burglars wherever they might be. Others only if they catch them in their home. Others would not shoot unless they saw a weapon. Some would shoot the bad guy in the Quikie Mart, some wouldn't unless he turned the gun on them personally. All of these decisions will be made based on the values and life experiences of the participants. It is easy for us to judge others, but that judgement is based on our own experiences and values. A few different experiences in our formative years and would those values be the same as they are today?

    It is these differences among us that make our society so interesting. It is these differences that at some time in the past caused the people of Texas to pass the laws that exist as they do now. It is these differences that may or may not cause the people of Texas to change them as a result of Mr. Horns actions.
    Last edited by P95Carry; November 24th, 2007 at 05:24 PM. Reason: Para's added!
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  11. #85
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    God Bless Texas

  12. #86
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    Texas is a different state of mind guys. If I had to bet, I would be willing to bet that this guy doesn't even get indicted on this. But if he does, he won't go to jail.
    ,=====o00o _
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  13. #87
    Senior Member Array Rustynuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    dang .45, what they were doing was burglary, not robbery.

    mpc1810 - Brazil has NO death penalty, the maximum sentence for any crime is 30 years. Not even a life sentence here...and no, you can't kill your wife for violating your machismo (and even if it were legal, is that something you're endorsing for the US?)

    And certainly you can see the difference between burglary and armed robbery, right? In one there is NO THREAT TO A HUMAN BEING, in the other there is a real and immediate threat to life. That, of course, changes everything. A BG with a weapon displayed is an immediate and grave threat; a guy LEAVING the scene of a non-violent, property crime is NOT. There is no possible way you can argue that these are moral equivalents when it comes to using deadly force. My child in danger, or even the Quicky-mart guy in danger, is vastly different from some guys Quisinart in danger....

    I really can't believe how many of you are willing to kill for property. Please, if you see someone leaving my house with a bag of silverware, call the cops and be a good witness... I like you guys, I don't want your lives ruined over my STUFF.
    How do you know they're just there for "burglary"? Someone could have been IN the house at the time, or could even have been killed as the guy was on the phone WAITING! Any breaking into a home (or car) in a castle doctrine state is ASSUMED to be with harmful intent, not just stealing. For once a legal tie goes to the public, not to the BG's "rights"!

    In your analogy, someone could have just killed you and/or raped the wife. Would you want someone to just wave them bye and thank them for being gracious "burglars"?

  14. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustynuts View Post
    How do you know they're just there for "burglary"? Someone could have been IN the house at the time, or could even have been killed as the guy was on the phone WAITING! Any breaking into a home (or car) in a castle doctrine state is ASSUMED to be with harmful intent, not just stealing. For once a legal tie goes to the public, not to the BG's "rights"!

    In your analogy, someone could have just killed you and/or raped the wife. Would you want someone to just wave them bye and thank them for being gracious "burglars"?
    How do we know that speeder next to you isn't planning to run down the next person he sees? How do we know the jaywalker isn't jaywalking in order to catch a woman he plans to rape? We DON'T know, but this shooter had a pretty good idea what was happening...


    There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that any violence took place, that anyone was in the residence to be harmed, or that the burglars had any weapons at all. The shooter says as much. Also, as I read the transcript, the shooter knew that two men had gone in, and that two had come out, so, no BGs waiting inside. Would you agree that there was at least as good a chance that these guys were friends/relatives of the neighbor, forced to "break in" and get something because they had been locked out? That very scenario has happened to two posters in this thread - did the two of us deserve to die because some lunatic (and, based on his transcript, this guy is a lunatic in my opinion) wasn't going to "let us get away with it?"

    Remember, this took place in broad daylight, and the shooter had been watching and listening for quite a while. He never once even hinted that someone was in any danger (other than himself, which seems a bit far fetched since the BGs weren't anywhere near him). This shooter WANTED to shoot. He WANTED to kill these guys in retaliation for their burglary. He implies it over and over in his 9-1-1 call. Only knowing what his stated intent was, he's a murderer.

    Look, I'm a cop - that's about as anti-BG as you can get...but I still maintain that it is morally wrong to kill two people (and not hardened career criminals, remember) for a bag of things. Even as a cop, it is well beyond my use of force policy to do what this guy did. Even if it weren't, I could never justify executing two men for burglary, period. Not for my stuff, and certainly not for some near-stranger's stuff. (And just so you know I'm not opposed to all killing - I've done it, at the right place, at the right time, and with the right justification.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    I've stayed away from this, but now I'm going to jump in and join OPFORs camp.

    I'm not going to take such risks as Mr. Horn did for property. I have no doubt that the two he killed were not making Texas a better place and I'm not going to shed any tears over them; but he made a serious error in judgment.
    I have to wonder if the people who say they should kill over property even understand what it is to take another life. I don’t mean that in a condescending way, but it seems apparent to me that’s the case in reading both sides of the argument and who's typing it.
    It isn’t like the movies…. the effects last years if not your entire life. I'm not going through all that for your stuff, and I dont want you to for my stuff.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I've stayed away from this, but now I'm going to jump in and join OPFORs camp.

    I'm not going to take such risks as Mr. Horn did for property. I have no doubt that the two he killed were not making Texas a better place and I'm not going to shed any tears over them; but he made a serious error in judgment.
    I have to wonder if the people who say they should kill over property even understand what it is to take another life. I don’t mean that in a condescending way, but it seems apparent to me that’s the case in reading both sides of the argument and who's typing it.
    It isn’t like the movies…. the effects last years if not your entire life. I'm not going through all that for your stuff, and I dont want you to for my stuff.
    For me, it has nothing to do with "stuff". It's about protecting myself, my family, and my property by making sure that two guys who appear to think that my neighborhood is a good place to break into homes and take stuff from, are disabused of that notion as emphatically as possible.

    Let me be clear - the more I've thought about this, the more I believe that Mr. Horn is clearly in the wrong, based on his statements to the 911 operator. It seems as though Mr. Horn had a desire to kill these guys. That is a mindset I don't share and cannot abide.

    What I am saying is that whether or not the two guys I see breaking into my neighbor's home are armed has very little to do with how safe I will feel knowing that they got away without having done whatever I could to detain them. This means calling 911 first & foremost, but it also means confronting them myself if necessary (if the police haven't yet arrived by the time they are leaving), and defending myself if necessary should they be armed and in the mood to attack me. Yes, I would let them get away if they decided to run - I can't run very far due to a health problem - and I would never shoot at them unless I reasonably felt I was in danger. But I would put myself into harm's way in this situation. NOT over "stuff", but in order to protect myself, my family, & my property against future danger from these two particular BGs.

    I realize that what I am describing is different from what Mr. Horn did. I'll say it again - I believe Mr. Horn was in the wrong based on his own statements. What I'm describing is how I'd like to think I would handle the situation as it was described, and my reasoning behind my decisions. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Finally, I couldn't care less whether or not the BGs have no records or if they have standing reservations at the local jail because they spend so much time there. They are doing something that is threatening my safety and the safety of my loved ones, and they take on the risk of receiving bodily harm - and yes, even death - by breaking into someone's home.
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

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