Man Shoots Burglars: PASADENA, TX: MERGED

This is a discussion on Man Shoots Burglars: PASADENA, TX: MERGED within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; dang, I dont disagree with you at all. Mr. Horn went out with the intent on shooting... thats the difference....

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Thread: Man Shoots Burglars: PASADENA, TX: MERGED

  1. #91
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    dang, I dont disagree with you at all. Mr. Horn went out with the intent on shooting... thats the difference.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  2. #92
    VIP Member Array OPFOR's Avatar
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    I can agree with that, in large part, dang.45. It isn't so much the actions that Horn took (though I still have strong reservations about confronting non-violent criminals who are leaving the scene, I understand your point about possible future danger) as it is his mindset and stated intent. If I saw this going down, I would have a duty to intervene, but I wouldn't like it. I certainly would be hoping that I wouldn't have to draw my weapon, much less use it... If the BGs force my hand, then so be it, but I wouldn't shoot them if they fled (assuming that there I didn't reasonably believe that allowing them to escape would put someone in immeditate and grave danger), and I certainly wouldn't shoot them simply because I couldn't let them "get away with it..."

    But, again, I see where you're coming from, and appreciate your point of view...hell, I even share most of it!
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  3. #93
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    SIXTO, OPFOR-

    I've been reading this forum pretty consistently for the last month and a half (or so), and find the replies posted by you two to be among the ones that typically jive most closely with what I think, so I was a little bit un-nerved to see your opinions so divergent from mine. I'm glad I took the time to really think through the situation as it was presented, and to evaluate how I would react differently given the same circumstances. Its thought exercises like these, when combined with my own beliefs & life experiences, that are helping to hone my own "rules" about when to engage in specific situations, and how to act once engaged. That is, I assume, one of the major purposes of the forum, and I for one am glad it is here.

    Thanks for your posts on this topic, and others...
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

  4. #94
    VIP Member Array OPFOR's Avatar
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    No worries, dang, I feel the same. I don't disagree with confronting the "evil doers" of the world (which I hope is fairly obvious), but this guy, in this case, seems to be WAY out of line.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  5. #95
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    The greatest value in these sorts of discussions comes, IMO, when we each explore the practical meaning of someone's actions or thoughts. Such "role playing" helps, as you say, to hone our own conception of the rules of engagement that we'll employ if/when the time comes.

    I am not an LEO, nor an attorney, nor in the armed forces. I'm just another poor schlub looking to make my way with a minimum of fuss while staying out of the crosshairs of some criminal's attentions. But, half a lifetime of evaluating scenarios and training to handle them has given me a deep respect for how much there is to learn, how little I know, and how far I'm prepared to go in order to defend myself and my family. There are no absolutes in life, except that change will happen.

    May I forever find myself open to change and willing to adapt to a changing world.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  6. #96
    Senior Member Array Rustynuts's Avatar
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    OPFOR, I still have to disagree that B&E is necessarily a non-violent crime. How do you read minds to know intent on such an event. What if you are inside at the time? Do you say, oh, they must just be thieves, I'm safe! Much different analogy than the speeder you pointed out! You're an LE, how would you enter such a house? Strolling in with authoritative commands because they're obviously non-violent burglars? Or do you go in with guns drawn, and maybe with canine? Saying that, I may not agree with how this event ended, the "GG" is most likely in the wrong either morally or legally.

    What I'm saying is with most Castle Law states (and Texas is one) breaking into a house or car is construed legally as having violent intent (or even entering an unlocked door for that matter if you don't belong there). Doesn't matter if the BG is found later to be unarmed and just wanting a drink of water. You can shoot in self defense immediately, no questions asked. You can also act "in the shoes" of third party victim. Someone is getting robbed/beaten/raped, etc., you can fire. If the guy was so intent on shooting these two, he would have been better off claiming he thought he heard screams from the house and went to "investigate".

  7. #97
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    More Lead Poisoning - merge

    Please move if this is in the wrong spot.

    Here is a link to the story. http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT

    Did he do anything wrong, right? Will he be charged?


    Texan Kills Thieves: Hero or Homicidal?

    By LIZ AUSTIN PETERSON
    Associated Press Writer

    HOUSTON (AP) -- The cha-chick of a shell entering a shotgun's chamber rattled through the 911 line just before Joe Horn stepped out his front door.

    Horn, 61, had phoned police when he saw two men break into his neighbor's suburban Houston home through a window in broad daylight. Now they were getting away with a bag of loot.

    "Don't go outside the house," the 911 operator pleaded. "You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun. I don't care what you think."

    "You want to make a bet?" Horn answered. "I'm going to kill them."

    He did.

    Admirers, including several of his neighbors, say Horn is a hero for killing the burglars, protecting his neighborhood and sending a message to would-be criminals. Critics call him a loose cannon. His attorney says Horn just feared for his life.

    Prosecuting Horn could prove difficult in Texas, where few people sympathize with criminals and many have an almost religious belief in the right to self-defense. The case could test the state's self-defense laws, which allow people to use deadly force in certain situations to protect themselves, their property and their neighbors' property.

    Horn was home in Pasadena, about 15 miles southeast of Houston, on Nov. 14 when he heard glass breaking, said his attorney, Tom Lambright. He looked out the window and saw 38-year-old Miguel Antonio DeJesus and 30-year-old Diego Ortiz using a crowbar to break out the rest of the glass.

    He grabbed a 12-gauge shotgun and called 911, Lambright said.

    "Uh, I've got a shotgun," he told the dispatcher. "Uh, do you want me to stop them?"

    "Nope, don't do that," the dispatcher responded. "Ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, OK?"

    Horn and the dispatcher spoke for several minutes, during which Horn pleaded with the dispatcher to someone to catch the men and vowed not to let them escape. Over and over, the dispatcher told him to stay inside. Horn repeatedly said he couldn't.

    When the men crawled back out the window carrying a bag, Horn began to sound increasingly frantic.

    "Well, here it goes, buddy," Horn said as a shell clicked into the chamber. "You hear the shotgun clicking, and I'm going."

    A few seconds passed.

    "Move," Horn can be heard saying on the tape. "You're dead."

    Boom.

    Click.

    Boom.

    Click.

    Boom.

    Horn redialed 911 and told the dispatcher what he'd done.

    "I had no choice," he said, his voice shaking. "They came in the front yard with me, man. I had no choice. Get somebody over here quick."

    Lambright said Horn had intended to take a look around when he left his house and instead came face to face with the burglars, standing 10 to 12 feet from him in his yard.

    Horn is heavyset and middle-aged and would have been no match in a physical confrontation with the two men, who were young and strong, Lambright said. So when one or both of them "made lunging movements," Horn fired in self-defense, he said.

    Family members of the two shooting victims have made few public statements.

    Diamond Morgan, Ortiz's widow, who has an 8-month-old son with him, told Houston television station KTRK that she was stunned by Horn's statements on the 911 tape. "It's horrible," she said. "He was so eager, so eager to shoot."

    The Associated Press could not find a telephone listing for Morgan.

    The case brought back memories of Bernard Goetz, the New Yorker whom some hailed as a folk hero after he shot four teenagers he said were trying to rob him when they asked for $5 on a subway in 1984.

    Goetz was cleared of attempted murder and assault charges but convicted of illegal possession of the gun he used to shoot the youths. He served 8 1/2 months in jail and was ordered by a jury to pay $43 million to one of the teenagers he shot.

    Pasadena police were still investigating Monday and planned to present their findings to Harris County prosecutors within the next two weeks, police spokesman Vance Mitchell said. From there, it is expected to be presented to a grand jury. In the meantime, Horn remains uncharged.

    Texas law allows people to use deadly force to protect themselves if it is reasonable to believe they could otherwise be killed. In some cases, people also can use deadly force to protect their neighbors' property; for example, if a homeowner asks a neighbor to watch over his property while he's out of town.

    At issue is whether it was reasonable for Horn to fear the men and whether his earlier threats on the 911 call showed he planned to kill them no matter what, said Fred C. Moss, who teaches criminal law at Southern Methodist University in Dallas.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  8. #98
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    legallywise......er... iffy?
    I just don't know
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
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  9. #99
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    Did he go after them...or was it self-defense. He statement "I'm going to kill them" is pretty increminating...

    Rick

  10. #100
    Senior Member Array BruceGibson's Avatar
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    Interesting story, and I'd agree, the reporter's recital of the 911 tape sounds pretty bad. Chances are he'll get charged, but I'd bet that if he doesn't plea a jury would acquit.

  11. #101
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    even though he was wrong in his actions ,i really wish this guy had not run his head so much to the 911 operator.thats whats causing all the problems for him.
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  12. #102
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    First of all...911 operators can't give legal advice, but they can give tactical advice?

    Second...the old man should have hung up the phone

    Third...the old man should have NEVER indicated he was "gonna kill'em"

    Fourth...he should have stayed in his house

    I've also read reports where one of the BGs came out of the house, and started walking towards the old man with a crowbar in his hands.

    Unfortunately, the 911 call with him stating "I'm gonna kill'em" is going to haunt him at trial.
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  13. #103
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    What is the crime rate in Brazil? From our missionaries in church, I hear it is pretty wide open. Has been compared to New Orleans and we all know how bad that is. What is the deterrent if there is no death penalty? Obviously, there isn't one because Brazil is known for its' high crime rate.
    So,,,, where does it stop? You just sit in your house and watch thieves break into everybodys' houses? Look at the way our country is going. Back when they had public hangings and children were required to attend by their parents, and Mom and Dad were standing right behind them saying,"you do what he did and you will die just like he did!" there wasn't as much crime. But,,,,,,, as we have become more liberal as a country, and justice has not been swift and sure, people have realized that nothing will happen to them except maybe jail time, so they go out and riot and destroy others peoples' properties and steal and loot and don't care. And who pays for it? The good honest law abiding people who pay their taxes and insurance and both are steadily going up because of complacency and the "over achievers" in sensitivity classes. Where will it end? Look at the countries where terrorists rule the country. Where people are afraid to live their lives because of not the people who run their country but the people that RUIN their country. Where are the checks and balances?
    Why does the good, honest, law abiding tax payer have to take it on the chin because of gutless, spineless people? I don't even like the idea that if I shoot someone in my house that I have to leave his bleeding carcass in my house to ruin my carpet and carpet pad. Why should I have to pay to get all his thieving blood out of my carpet? He sure won't be paying and his family will be on the news saying how the thief was such a good father, brother, husband or whatever. Why do any of us have to suffer for vermin?
    If any of you are ever in the situation the shooter is in, you will really want someone who believes as I do in that jury room fighting for your rights. Now is the time to start changing the jury pool so that when we protect ourselves and our property, we will have some right thinking individuals speaking and acting in our behalf in the jury room!

  14. #104
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    This is the same story that is in a different thread. In that thread, a news story recounts how the shooter told the 911 dispatcher that he was going out to kill the burglars.

    Clearly, that's not the right thing to say.

    But I am so fed up, so absolutely infuriated by the unbridled lawlessness, criminality and violence that has been going on all around us that I simply will not condemn this man for what he did.

    In fact, while I can't say that I would do the same thing, I applaud him and what he did. He returned two worthless lives to nothingness, and made them forever unable to prey on any other innocents. Not just his neighborhood, but society, too, owes a debt to him for that.

    Now some will say that I'm nuts for supporting a guy who premeditated the killing of two burglars who were "only stealing property." I don't agree. Their crime might have been stealing property, but what they were actually doing was playing their own small role in tearing apart the fabric of society. This must be stopped, viciously, or our society, our order, our peace will be destroyed by despicable vermin.

    Abuttermilk: +1

  15. #105
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    On another forum this morning, the Houston shooting was reported as a "no bill" by the Grand Jury. He was lucky.

    God bless Texas.

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