New Pasadena, Tx shooting Info.

This is a discussion on New Pasadena, Tx shooting Info. within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by LongRider Again please read what I said. I said nothing about excluding the 911 call in a court of law. I said ...

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Thread: New Pasadena, Tx shooting Info.

  1. #46
    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    Again please read what I said.

    I said nothing about excluding the 911 call in a court of law.

    I said in my opinion except for the call to 911 Mr Horn did nothing wrong. Two different things entirely

    Again please don't make up stuff to respond too

    According to the detective they ran towards Mr Horn onto Mr Horns property.
    IMO, your are splitting hairs...you stated: "Excluding the phone call and statements to 911 I believe that Mr Horn's action's were proper and correct." Thus, you want to "exclude" his statements...which in my simple mind must also mean any court actions...since this is where it will truly be adjudicated. ...I wonder how they got shot in the back if they ran "towards" Horn?

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    Last edited by bandit383; December 10th, 2007 at 08:22 AM.

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  3. #47
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    LongRider, the whole idea that Horn was in fear for his life is bogus from the start - he was IN HIS HOUSE, the burglars had no idea he even existed, and he was in absolutely no danger whatsoever... He PUT himself in a position to fear for his life, if he even ever did. And, how do you know that Horn knew about the center punch? There is no mention of it that I've seen...

    And, according to the detective, ONE of them ran in Horn's general direction...read the article. What he actually says is that one BG ended up closer to Horn at the end of his movement then he was when he started. The cop never says the BG ran AT or TOWARDS orn (a very noticable absence, in fact). The other guy was straight up running away.

    I know we're all in a hurry to dance on these guys graves, and that's just fine. If you support executing people for burglary, just say so - don't try to paint this as a good shoot in the way that most of us understand one.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  4. #48
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Ok folks, it is pretty obvious that there are very strong and very different opinions on the morality of Mr Horn's actions. What I am looking at here is strictly the legality. I know in Maryland that 9-1-1 tape would be prime exhibit for the prosecution at Mr Horn's trial. But...... This is Texas!

    So, indulge me if you will. I don't know if there is any relevant case law, but if we go by the law as cited in my post #30 and we look specifically at 9.42. (2) (B) and (3) and 9.43. (1) It would apear on the surface that Horn is legal.
    Let's assume Horn didn't even fear for his safety and was shooting the bad guys to prevent them from fleeing with his neighbors stuff. So of course they were shot in the back, they were running away and shooting them was the only way Horn believed he could prevent them escaping without getting himself injured.

    In the 9-1-1 tape, Horn told the disatcher that he knew the law. What if he did? If the shooting was within the letter of the law, what if any evidentiary value is there in his statements to the dispatcher?
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  5. #49
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    If the shooting was completely within the law as defined by the Texas statutes regarding defense of property (which I'm not certain he was, by a long shot), then the 9-1-1 tape would be much less important - you are absolutely correct, mcp1810.

    My feelings are, however, that even if this was a completely "legal" shoot, was it right? Many of us are loathe to intervene because of the dangers of things going wrong, of us having made a mistake about what was actually happening, etc. Can you imagine this story if the "burglars" ended up being friends of the neighbors? We'd all be sitting here saying "that's why you be a good witness if you (or hell, anyone's) life isn't in danger" and so on. Or what if Horn had been killed? We'd be saying "what a dumba**, leaving his safe and secure position to go chasing after two BGs for a bag of stuff!"

    And then there is the fact that burglary is not a capital crime (even in Texas), coupled with Horns repeated intentions to shoot and kill... I think we have a moral "wrong" even if it is found to be a legal "right." But, as always, YMMV.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    There is so much talk about the 911 tape, and so many references to what was said that I don't remember being said, I decided to go back an listen to it again and I think all of you should as well.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f3d_1195171937

    I am not defending the suspects or condemning Mr. Horn. I am posting the info as I find it. If I have missed something in another article, please post it.

    Homeowner only knew of a crowbar that the suspects had. Any mention of a "Center Punch" prior to the shooting is not there.

    911 operator only said "You are going to get shot" once, and I believe he was implying that the Plain Clothes officer(s) on scene (though he did not tell homeowner about them yet) was possibly going to do it. Just my interpretation of that statement. The only one that knows what was meant is the 911 operator. He did tell Mr. Horn repeatedly "Don't go out there, stay inside"
    Corbett (Captain of department) said the plainclothes detective, whose name has not been released, had parked in front of Horn's house in response to the 911 call. He saw the men between Horn's house and his neighbor's before they crossed into Horn's front yard.

    Corbett believes neither Horn nor the men knew a police officer was present.

    "It was over within seconds. The detective never had time to say anything before the shots were fired," Corbett said. "At first, the officer was assessing the situation. Then he was worried Horn might mistake him for the 'wheel man' (get-away driver). He ducked at one point."

    When Horn confronted the suspects in his yard, he raised his shotgun to his shoulder, Corbett said. However the men ignored his order to freeze.

    Corbett said one man ran toward Horn, but had angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back just before reaching the curb.

    "The detective confirmed that this suspect was actually closer to Horn after he initiated his run than at the time when first confronted," said Corbett. "Horn said he felt in jeopardy."
    I could find no mention of a "Change in direction towards Horn" after he warned them not to move. For all we know, the path of the criminals exit was across Mr. Horn's front yard. Again, the only ones that know that one is the suspects, and they won't be telling anyone in this plane any time soon.

    As for being closer to Mr. Horn after he told them to not move, if you are already in motion, there is a delay for mental process time and decision making, meanwhile your feet are still moving.

    Now in all of this, all the info we have is the 911 tape (presuming it was not edited other than names and addresses), and the news media - who are only going to tell you what they want, to color your judgment towards their (News Media) opinion, which is typically anti gun and keep the sheeple in fear. We have no official police reports, no forum posts by the police on scene or eye witnesses. I can guarantee you the quotes by the police captain were bits and pieces of what was actually said, as well as the PC detective on scene. We don't know what happened, all we can do is speculate.

  7. #51
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    Dunno how I missed this one. My roommate just asked me about it today and I had no idea about it. But when he told me the details my first thought was "Oh man! Bad shoot!" When he told me that they were not inclined to prosecute I had to investigate.

    I'm with OPFOR. Completely. Granted we don't know everything that happened and we are playing Thursday morning QB at this point... but from what I can read? It sounds bad. From the 911 call to the autopsy. That was an out-and-out bad shoot. If that had been here in AZ or Oklahoma I'd put money down that this citizen would be in a cell right now.
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  8. #52
    VIP Member Array Sig 210's Avatar
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    "That was an out-and-out bad shoot. If that had been here in AZ or Oklahoma I'd put money down that this citizen would be in a cell right now."

    Do not bet that it would be a bad shoot in all of OK. Tulsa, yes: Rest of state iffy or no. Unlike Texas, the OK prosecutor is not required to take the case to the Grand Jury. Recently the Comanche country prosecutor refused to take two cases to the Grand Jury.

  9. #53
    Member Array libertarian5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    Please quote me in context. your reference is not what I said or meant.
    I apologize if I misunderstood the meaning of your post. I guess my head was still spinning from your earlier post (#12) where the name of a black activist morphed into the Black Panthers, Eldridge Cleaver, and "advocating white women" (Whatever that means)

    The problem is that thin line where self defense stops and vigilantism begins. If you were in WalMart and observed a teenager stealing a $301.00 gameboy (This would be a felony in some states), would you notify a store clerk or would you shoot him in the back as he flees the store?

    I think it was a bad shoot. Texas law may, indeed get him off. That would certainly embolden others to do the same as Horn. That is the type of publicity that the CCW community does not need. It is the type of thing that could ultimately cause more stringent anti gun laws to be enacted.

  10. #54
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    IMO, your are splitting hairs...you stated: "Excluding the phone call and statements to 911 I believe that Mr Horn's action's were proper and correct."
    Jeez again I said in my opinion Mr Horn did nothing wrong excluding the phone call. Because the phone calls are what are causing all this grief for him. Just as in any good shoot, talking to the police afterwards is the wrong thing to do. What is hard to grasp about the fact that talking to the police before after or during any shoot is a very very bad idea because whatever you say will be used against you. This is a perfect example. It is not the shooting that was witnessed by an officer it is the tapes that are causing Mr Horn the grief. Again in my opinion excluding the 911 call Mr Horn did nothing wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    Thus, you want to "exclude" his statements...which in my simple mind must also mean any court actions...
    My opinion on an internet message board had the force of law? Really? I specifically made a point of saying my opinion is my opinion about what Mr Horn did. Not about his defense or anything that will or should happen or be used in court. Is it the word
    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    "exclude"
    that you are having a problem with? Do you think "exclude" is some legal term? How about I use another word that means the same thing. How about a synonym? Like say "except". Does that help? Lets try it, let me say the same thing and say except instead of excluding. To be clear my opinion is: Excluding the phone call and statements to 911 I believe that Mr Horn's action's were proper and correct. He did the only thing that an honorable man could do under the circumstances. Is that any clearer? Good that is exactly what I have been saying. If not see above about why I think the 911 call was a bad idea

    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    I wonder how they got shot in the back if they ran "towards" Horn?
    That would be because the detective that witnessed the whole thing said the BG were closer to Mr Horn when he shot them than when he asked them to stop. I am pretty sure that closer means they ran towards not away. In fact I am positive of it.
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  11. #55
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    LongRider, the 9-1-1 call (and other evidence) indicate that it was a BAD shoot. If we exclude all the evidence that it was a bad shoot, then of course it was a good shoot...but of course that's not how things work.

    And the detective said ONE BG ended closer than he started - it is VERY SIGNIFICANT that he DIDN'T say that he ran "at" or "towards" Horn. I know if I was the cop on the scene and the BG ran at the shooter, I'd darn sure say so in no uncertain terms, and not couch it in some "closer at the end" non-statement.

    And the idea that he did "the only honorable thing" would be laughable, if it weren't so dangerous... Murder isn't honorable. Setting out with the intent to kill isn't honorable. Ignoring the directions of law enforcement isn't honorable. I continue to be amazed that there are so many folks defending his actions...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  12. #56
    Member Array abuttermilk's Avatar
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    "That would certainly embolden others to do the same as Horn." And the criminals would stop their criminal ways and stay out of the neighborhoods and people would be safer.
    And the problem with that is??????????????????????
    Texas law supports what Horn did!
    A police dispatcher/911 operator may give advice and help but it does not carry the weight of law. The courts decide what is the weight of law. What the dispatcher said may be brought up but anyone, as this forum shows, may give advice. Texans do not have a requirement to retreat and cower in their homes. Why is it so hard to see that laws that do these things empower the criminal and embolden them?
    Get over being "politically correct" and back to common sense and cause and effect.
    Support people who stand for law and order, don't stab them in the back.
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  13. #57
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    "That would certainly embolden others to do the same as Horn." And the criminals would stop their criminal ways and stay out of the neighborhoods and people would be safer.
    And the problem with that is??????????????????????
    I don't see how shooting a firearm at unarmed fleeing suspects in a neighborhood in the dark really makes anyone safer. The police officer at the scene ducked to the floor of his car because he thought he might get shot by Horn. Do you think Horn's actions made him safer?

    Have we completely given up on that old concept about having a nation of laws? The death penalty is usually reserved for the most heinous of crimes, and a judge and jury is normally involved before it is assessed. Maybe we could just get rid of the police, judges, and juries, and let neighbors handle it all.

  14. #58
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    abuttermilk, I don't think I saw any posts from you on the thread regarding the police in Rio... To sum it up, they kill about 100 bad guys a month in the city, often simply executing them for being "criminals," and yet the crime rate in Rio doesn't go down. There is no evidence to support this theory that instant and summary execution is a real deterrent for criminal activity there - no "cause and effect" as you put it, but there is absolute proof that innocent people are killed in the "crossfire." If one of Horn's shotgun blasts had taken the head off a little kid accross the street, of the plainclothes cop who had just rolled up, how many of you would be supporting his undeniably reckless actions?

    If Houston had 1200 extra-judicial executions every year, how many innocents would get caught up in them? Who decides what crime is worth being executed over, if not the law of the land? Shoplifting can be a felony, should LPOs at Sears start killing shoplifters in the streets? How about other shoppers? How do you prevent these "I'm not lettin' um get away with it" guys from killing the wrong people, for the wrong reasons?

    Say your teen-aged son gets caught up in a property crime - vandalism, perhaps... Do you want Joe Horn around the corner with his shotgun to kill him over some broken windows?

    Horn was wrong, based on all the evidence we have available. He does NOT support law and order, he supports vigilantism, which is the exact opposite. You're right, though, we're all on the same team...unfortunately, Horn is most certainly not.

    ETA: libertarian5, this was 2 o'clock in the afternoon! You know, right when kids (especially younger ones) start getting home from school... Had this been the middle of the night, with less chance of people being on the streets and the inherent danger of limited visibility, I might (MIGHT) give Horn a little more leeway. As it is....
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  15. #59
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Horn ignored the burglars rights under the 5th, 6th, 8th, and 9th Amendments under the auspices of exercising his own of the 2nd...



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  16. #60
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    OPFOR,
    We don't have 1200 extra judicial executions a year here in the Houston area, but part of that can be explained by the great hospitals here. We actually do have probably about one good guy shooting a bad guy a week around here, just most of them survive. In fact, if the no one dies it seems it is barely newsworthy! About a year ago in Harris county we had a home owner wake up, catch a guy breaking into his truck. He pursued the guy two blocks and captured him, then shot him with his 12 guage when he allegedly made a sudden movement.
    No billed by the grand jury.

    We had a shooting on a metro bus where the victim was unarmed but threatened and was advancing on a passenger that had bumped into him boarding the bus. Significant difference in physical size, and also some believed a racial aspect to this one.
    No bill.

    Grand juries in this area don't seem too inclined to indict folks that shoot people that turn out to have documented criminal histories.

    I am aware of only one incident where a bystander was hit. It was a female customer at one of our illegal gambling parlors that got between the business owner and a bad guy. Business owner took her out with a shotgun. Bad guy got away.

    Does that worry me about my boys growing up? A little. But I am going to make a point of making it understood that if you break the law you take your chances.

    But I must admit, I do find it comforting knowing that if I am ever forced to shoot a bad guy, I will have a much better chance with the judicial system here than I would back in Maryland.

    I am not saying Horn was right, I just think he might be legal.
    There was an article in the Houston Chronicle when I first moved here. The writer had just moved here from New York. He said he had heard some noises out back and armed himself with a starters pistol. He went out back and fired off a couple of rounds to scare the bad guys off, then called the police. He was amazed when the officer that showed up told him " Get yourself a real gun. This is Texas!
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