New Pasadena, Tx shooting Info.

This is a discussion on New Pasadena, Tx shooting Info. within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by LongRider I don't get how it relevant could be pasty white and the cause and effect would be the same. They each ...

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Thread: New Pasadena, Tx shooting Info.

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array stormbringerr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    I don't get how it relevant could be pasty white and the cause and effect would be the same. They each had thirty or forty years to proved they were honest law abiding people. Instead, they chose to prove that they were thieves. Robbing people can result in death. Makes me sick that these bigots try to make every issue a race issue but not surprised that another "X" allies himself with the thieving low life scum sucking maggots instead of honest hard working citizens. The Black Panthers isn't that the group that wrote a book "Soul On Ice" by Eldridge Cleaver advocating white women? And they call folks racist?
    eldridge cleaver...criminal,opportunist,crack head, rapist and general scum bag...so loved by the liberal idiots that live in a world of lollipop houses and candy cane streets.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
    ― Thomas Paine

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  3. #62
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    As far as Mr Horn ignoring someones constitutional rights. The Constitution only a set of restrictions on what powers the government has. It specifiys what the government is allowed to do. Or not allowed to do.
    Michael

  4. #63
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    Ok, Sports Fans, Some Facts:

    I have read a lot of folks from all over the country support Mr. Horns' decision, and I have heard some flat out say that he should be prosecuted; with that:

    • In Texas, if you commit robbery, rape and murder, every law-abiding Texan is within his or her legal rights to shoot you dead.
    • If you are caught in the commission of a serious crime, Texans have the right to apply deadly force. Period. If you are caught and convicted of murder, you will still in many cases die. It will just take a little longer (about 8 years by current stats).

    And for those that still disbelieve my statements, I offer you the actual text taken from the Texas Penal code:

    9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person
    in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is
    justified in using force against another when and to the degree the
    actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to
    prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful
    interference with the property.
    (b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible,
    movable property by another is justified in using force against the
    other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force
    is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the
    property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit
    after the dispossession and:
    (1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no
    claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or
    (2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using
    force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

    Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
    Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
    1994.


    9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
    justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
    tangible, movable property:
    (1) if he would be justified in using force against the
    other under Section 9.41; and
    (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
    deadly force is immediately necessary:
    (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
    arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
    nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
    (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
    immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
    robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
    property; and
    (3) he reasonably believes that:
    (A) the land or property cannot be protected or
    recovered by any other means; or
    (B) the use of force other than deadly force to
    protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
    another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

    Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
    Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
    1994.


    9.43. PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSON'S PROPERTY. A person
    is justified in using force or deadly force against another to
    protect land or tangible, movable property of a third person if,
    under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them to be, the
    actor would be justified under Section 9.41 or 9.42 in using force
    or deadly force to protect his own land or property and:
    (1) the actor reasonably believes the unlawful
    interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or
    criminal mischief to the tangible, movable property; or
    (2) the actor reasonably believes that:
    (A) the third person has requested his protection
    of the land or property;
    (B) he has a legal duty to protect the third
    person's land or property; or
    (C) the third person whose land or property he
    uses force or deadly force to protect is the actor's spouse, parent,
    or child, resides with the actor, or is under the actor's care.


    In a nutshell, this is the law here in Texas; much of it is derived from the frontier days when your neighbor was as dependent on you as you were upon him for survival. You looked out for each other. Here in Texas, we know our neighbors and look out for them even if you are not around. If you are a criminal that is into robbery, rape, murder or other violent crimes, you now understand the fate that awaits you when you go to kick in that door.

    You may run into someone like Joe Horn........
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  5. #64
    Member Array libertarian5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormbringerr View Post
    eldridge cleaver...criminal,opportunist,crack head, rapist and general scum bag...so loved by the liberal idiots that live in a world of lollipop houses and candy cane streets.

    Relevancy?

    Glad to know how you feel about Eldridge Cleaver. He died in 1998. What does that have to do with Mr. Horn?

  6. #65
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    I think they will indict him and let a jury decide, because it has become too political now. I don't think a jury will convict him, if properly selected.

    My training as a TX LEO puts me kind of "on the fence" as to whether it is a good shoot, or not. Tx law is pretty lenient, but the courts have this "what a reasonable man would do" way of looking at stuff like this. I'm not so sure he's in the clear.

    We were taught, you can't just go from "no force" to "deadly force" without a weapon being directly involved. Of course that is as a LEO, who is held to a much higher standard, than regular citizens. We were also taught, that if you have the right to use deadly force, it doesn't matter if the BG is shot in the back.

    I guess we will see what happens, in a week or so.
    "Texas can make it without the United States, but the United States can't make it without Texas!".... Sam Houston

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  7. #66
    Member Array abuttermilk's Avatar
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    edr9x23super,
    I appreciate your posting of the appropriate Texas statutes. I especially appreciate the final paragraph that says what each of us should be doing across our great country to once again make it strong!
    Also, your signature line is very appropriate at any time and should be an abiding thought in our hearts and minds at all times.
    "It does not take a majority to prevail,,,,,,but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." Samuel Adams

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    As far as Mr Horn ignoring someones constitutional rights. The Constitution only a set of restrictions on what powers the government has. It specifiys what the government is allowed to do. Or not allowed to do.
    Michael
    And with that a citizen is not above the law, just as the govt. is not either.
    Those are rights, civil rights...and in America everyone is entitled to them.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  9. #68
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    Latest update on the Horn case

    Check out the latest from the chronicle on the Horn case. I can't believe this writer is actually quoting from the penal code. Maybe they won't indict him!!!

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5374078.html
    "Texas can make it without the United States, but the United States can't make it without Texas!".... Sam Houston

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  10. #69
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    I must say, it will be very interesting to see where this goes... The report also brings up an interesting point (one that I've brought up, but no one seems willing to answer) - what if it were teenaged girls toilet papering their friends house? This is criminal mischief, and therefore you could very well legally kill them...but does this make it right?

    In Horn's case, the guys he shot were undoubtedly BAD guys, but Horn had no way of knowing about their past, their immigration status, their relationship with the homeowner that was being burgled, and so on. There is so much potential for mistakes in cases like this, that perhaps the law itself should be looked at...

    Wow, I almost can't believe I'm saying that. But, there it is. I am 100% fully in favor of all people having the ability to defend their lives, and in many cases even their own property. But I don't know if I can support a law that allows citizens to kill for other peoples property, or to prevent the fleeing of non-violent felons (something LEOs aren't allowed to do, by the way). Man, since when did I get a conscience?
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  11. #70
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    I In Horn's case, the guys he shot were undoubtedly BAD guys, but Horn had no way of knowing about their past, their immigration status, their relationship with the homeowner that was being burgled, and so on. There is so much potential for mistakes in cases like this, that perhaps the law itself should be looked at...

    :
    As a result of this incident the law probably will be looked at and, sadly, could result in more restrictive gun laws. Horn hasn't done gun owners any favor.

  12. #71
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Hey OPFOR,
    Welcome to Texas!
    When I was first house hunting down here I went back to work and was telling my co-workers that in many ways Texas might as well be on a different planet than Maryland! That toilet papering was one of the things I pointed out.
    I can legally shoot someone here for something I wouldn't even have written a report for back there! If someone called us about their yard getting T.P.'ed we would tell them that toilet paper is biodegradable, no permanent physical damage is done, so this does not qualify as a vandalism. If it was in progress we would dispatch as disorderly conduct, but if occurred earlier you were out of luck.
    The laws here in Texas aren't perfect, but I like them a lot better than what I had to deal with in Maryland.

    Just a side note on Texas Justice. A Galveston grand jury just indicted the parents in the "Baby Grace" murder on capital murder charges. They deliberated almost three whole minutes! The prosecuter said "My response to that is, what took them so long, because the normal amount of deliberation is much shorter."
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  13. #72
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    This law has been on the books for more than 30 years, and probably won't get changed. The trend here has been to reinforce it with new changes, like the "castle doctrine". Which in reality is just putting the law back the way it was 20 years ago. Texans have always had the right to use deadly force to stop "theft or criminal mischief at night time", that's why you teach your kids not to mess with other people's property.

    Many states put property crimes at a higher value than personal crimes. If you don't believe me then find out what the standard bail is for crimes in your community. Here, credit card abuse has a higher standard bail, than murder.

    What I can't believe is that the DA, will really just put whoever is at intake on the hot seat. Here, usually the big cases are assigned to one of the top "capital crimes" prosecutors. The DA's working intake are usually less experienced prosecutors. And, if it goes to the grand jury without a recommendation for charges, in most cases, there is no indictment.

    I stated earlier that I was on the fence about what was going to happen, because the DA here has had a problem with trying to force his views on the public, instead of simply prosecuting the laws on the books. Maybe he has gotten enough political backlash from it, that he is simply going "by the book" on this case.

    It gets more interesting every day.
    "Texas can make it without the United States, but the United States can't make it without Texas!".... Sam Houston

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  14. #73
    Distinguished Member Array P7fanatic's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    what if it were teenaged girls toilet papering their friends house? This is criminal mischief, and therefore you could very well legally kill them...

    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson

    "Liberalism is a Mental Disorder." -Michael Savage

    GOOD Gun Control is being able to hit your target! -Myself

  15. #74
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    P7fanatic - the hypothetical I proposed is a valid (if extreme) interpretation of Texas law. You can use lethal force to prevent criminal mischief (such as toilet papering a tree in someone's yard) in many circumstances in TX. The question is, is it right, even if it is legal.

    mcp1810 - I much prefer Texas' laws to Maryland's, in general, let's be clear on that! However, my reading of the statutes makes lethal force just too durned easy, IMO (with all the usual IANAL caveats). Folks have an inalienable right to protect themselves (and others) from physical harm. I believe this right extends, in many cases, to the protection of one's own property. I think it starts to break down, however, when it starts crossing into the protection of other people's property, of shooting unarmed, fleeing, non-violent felons, and so on. My reasoning is not just that property is inherently less valuable than human life, but also that it is much easier to misunderstand the situation when the crime is happening to someone else and/or someone else's property. If it isn't your house/car/business/whatever that is being burglarized, how can you really be sure of the situation? If you don't have a very clear and complete undertanding of the situation, most of us strongly advocate staying out of it, even when there is an actual threat of harm.

    In this case, Horn was lucky, and his guess about the burglary was right. He was also lucky that the BGs were in fact real BGs. He is also lucky that he didn't shoot the responding officer or any bystanders. In short, he was purt darned lucky all around...

    However - the real problem with Horn is his stated intent and mindset. This, in my eyes, damns him forever, no matter how "good" his shoot may or may not turn out to be in the courtrooms.

    I also agree that he has done harm to the cause of gun ownership, armed self defense, and, by extension, CCW.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  16. #75
    New Member Array austin-tatious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldTXCop View Post
    Check out the latest from the chronicle on the Horn case. I can't believe this writer is actually quoting from the penal code. Maybe they won't indict him!!!

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5374078.html
    Falkenberg (in the commentary) does include the fact that the BGs were "were on his yard ". An earlier article quotes LE that they (BGs) were less than 10 feet from Horn when it went down. And, IIRC, the 911 tape has very little time (2 or 3 seconds maybe?) between his opening his door and firing the shots...in which case he very well could have been reasonably in fear of death or serious bodily harm. We don't have all the facts yet, lMHO. I hope the jury does hear everything, not just what the Harris Cty DA wants them to in order to get the case to trial.

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