EBR Defensive Use ALERT

EBR Defensive Use ALERT

This is a discussion on EBR Defensive Use ALERT within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Evil Black Rifle (maybe) Police: Victim Fired AK-47 At Home Invader local6 ^ | January 8, 2008 | staff Posted on 01/08/2008 5 33 PM ...

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  1. #1
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Exclamation EBR Defensive Use ALERT

    Evil Black Rifle (maybe)

    Police: Victim Fired AK-47 At Home Invader
    local6 ^ | January 8, 2008 | staff
    Posted on 01/08/2008 533 PM EST by stainlessbanner
    SUMMERFIELD, Fla. -- A man fired shots from his AK-47 at an armed man who stormed into his house through the garage, interrupted a group of friends playing cards, shot into the ceiling of the home and demanded money.

    The incident happened Tuesday morning at 3085 SE 159th Lane Road in Summerfield.

    According to Marion County sheriff's deputies, three men, one of whom was armed with a silver revolver, stormed into the home and fired shots into the ceiling while searching for money and weapons.

    One of the invaders entered a bedroom where the father of one of the victims playing cards was sleeping, deputies said. The father, who had been awakened by the commotion and gunfire, retrieved his AK-47 from behind his bed, causing two of the assailants to run out of the front door of the house, deputies said.

    The invader with the revolver fired shots at the father, who returned fire, according to a Marion County sheriff's report. The culprit ran into a bedroom, broke a window and fled, deputies said. It is not known if he was struck.

    The armed assailant was described as a white man wearing blue jeans, a flannel shirt and a blue jean jacket. Deputies said he may be injured and seeking medical treatment. A second culprit had blonde hair and was wearing all dark clothing. The third invader was only described as a Hispanic man.

    Anyone with information about the incident is urged to call Crime Stoppers. The Marion County Sheriff's Office is offering a $5,000 reward for information leading to an arrest.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array Pete Zaria's Avatar
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    Are you positive this was recent?

    I swear I heard a story in the news in November or December that sounded almost EXACTLY like this, down to the "BG with a silver/chrome revolver".

    Scary stuff, but good job, Dad. Should have aimed a bit better, perhaps....

    Peace,
    Pete Zaria.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
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  3. #3
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Lets hope this guy lives on a ranch in the middle of nowhere with nothing but uninhabited woods and open land 360 degrees for at least a 2 mile radius.
    Otherwise Mr. Homeowner is a completely irresponsible neighbor.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  4. #4
    Senior Member Array Paladin132's Avatar
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    As I understand it the shots were fired indoors, so I can't quite subscribe to that Janq. If you are being fired on, I can't find a whole lot of fault in protecting yourself and others in your home. Also, rifle rounds tend to break up on internal walls more nicely than pistol cartridges so its entirely possible that the rounds didn't make it outside. Maybe I read something wrong though...

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paladin132 View Post
    As I understand it the shoots were fired indoors, so I can't quite subscribe to that Janq. If you are being fired on, I can't find a whole lot of fault in protecting yourself and others in your home. Also, rifle rounds tend to break up on internal walls more nicely than pistol cartridges so its entirely possible that the rounds didn't make it outside. Maybe I read something wrong though...
    I'm with both of you on this issue... no it's not responsible to fire a rifle in a neighborhood... when you have an alternative ready and available. If that's the gun he had right there, available for his defense then that's the gun he uses. So, assuming he chose the AK over the shotgun or handgun next to it, I agree with Janq. If the AK was all he had right there, I'm taking Paladin's side.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  6. #6
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    I'm in the camp that if in a gun fight against someone with a handgun....I want a long gun! A gun fight is not the place to decide 'What's fair?'....survival is what matters. That is why I don't have neighbors...I don't have to worry about where the bullets end up....
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.-Seneca

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  7. #7
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paladin132 View Post
    As I understand it the shoots were fired indoors, so I can't quite subscribe to that Janq. If you are being fired on, I can't find a whole lot of fault in protecting yourself and others in your home. Also, rifle rounds tend to break up on internal walls more nicely than pistol cartridges so its entirely possible that the rounds didn't make it outside. Maybe I read something wrong though...
    Paladin,

    An AK as a home defense weapon is not only dangerous but is a willful disregard for public safety.
    If he could afford to purchase an AK then he could have very easily afforded a shotgun instead, assuming he had only one weapon at hand. If he had available more than one weapon then again the AK was a poor choice as planning prior.
    AK rounds, 7.62x39mm, does not break up amongst internal walls. AR 5.56/.223 rounds _might_ but not 7.62x39. This is well known and that round has been shown to be effective penetrating brick and cinder. Penetrating an average American home of gypsum board and wood studs presents little resistance to 7.62x39.

    Use of rifles as a HD tool makes sense when the chambering and ammunition type is of the type that is lower and least likely to penetrate interior and exterior walls. The 762x39mm is not that round.
    Again if he lived in the middle of nowhere with no human inhabitants for a wide radius then okay an AK is a sensible and safe selection.
    But if he has neighbors of any sort and/or adjacent streets, and buildings, and areas where human beings might be found then he is a jerk.
    Use of a rifle for HD requires of the operator care in selection of chambering and round type just as with use of a pistol and a shotgun too for those who live in an apartment building, townhouse, duplex, condos, or group/boarding homes where walls might be shared even if they are firewalls.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #8
    Member Array jarhead45's Avatar
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    I am just hoping he just grabbed what he had..
    Honor, Courage, Virtue. These are what makes a man.
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  9. #9
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    Could lhave caused bug problems via 'civil suits'...IMP he should have used a pistol or shot gun...I wasn't there...maybe that's all he had...in that case, I would have done the same.
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    Senior Member Array MR D's Avatar
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    Jang - you beat me to it - just saw program on the Military Channel - they were trying various rounds vs Cinder block, brick, and wallboard...

    IIRC the 7.62x.39 went through all of the walls and steel office furniture (5.56 did not) .50 sure did though....

  11. #11
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    SO,,,,,,,, IF YOU ARE AT HOME AND SOME GUY IS SHOOTING AT YOU AND ALL YOU HAVE IS A RIFLE, YOU JUST HAVE TO GRIN AND TAKE IT!!??
    Give me a break!!! If,,,,If,,,,If,,,,,,,,,!! If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his butt when he landed!!!!
    Just shoot the murdering idiot!!!
    Or,,,,,,,
    Maybe you can "WHAT IF" him to death!!!!!
    All that kind of talk just puts more doubt about self defense in the minds of the voters and jury pools!
    When are you guys going to quit giving the thugs the right to run(ruin) our country??
    "It does not take a majority to prevail,,,,,,but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." Samuel Adams

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    No buttermilk, that is _not_ at all what I'd said nor implied.
    Take a breather and then re-read my post.

    Specifically this part;

    "...If he could afford to purchase an AK then he could have very easily afforded a shotgun instead, assuming he had only one weapon at hand. If he had available more than one weapon then again the AK was a poor choice as planning prior."

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR D View Post
    Jang - you beat me to it - just saw program on the Military Channel - they were trying various rounds vs Cinder block, brick, and wallboard...

    IIRC the 7.62x.39 went through all of the walls and steel office furniture (5.56 did not)...
    Yep.

    7.62x39 will run right through wallboard, plaster, wood studs, and brick too with ease.
    With self defense there is also common sense and personal responsibility as well.
    Thank goodness his rounds that had to go somewhere upon missing the BG and exiting the confines of his home did not strike a citizen elsewhere amongst the background.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  14. #14
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    Question Respectfully, I disagree

    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Lets hope this guy lives on a ranch in the middle of nowhere with nothing but uninhabited woods and open land 360 degrees for at least a 2 mile radius. Otherwise Mr. Homeowner is a completely irresponsible neighbor.- Janq
    The purpose of a handgun in the home is to fight your way to a long gun. Fine if that's a shottie, as long as it's NOT loaded with any Buckshot. Buckshot of any size will slam right thru the interior walls of most modern dwellings and of course window glass and many doors, even exterior doors. We'll not even talk about slugs. What if you're a homeowner and this time the only thing you have to reach for is your .338 magnum for Elk? You going to use it as a club? IF you use it as a firearm are you irresponsible? I don't think so.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  15. #15
    BAC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Paladin,

    An AK as a home defense weapon is not only dangerous but is a willful disregard for public safety.
    If he could afford to purchase an AK then he could have very easily afforded a shotgun instead, assuming he had only one weapon at hand.
    I disagree with this statement. A shotgun has no less penetration than a rifle does; especially the loads suitable for home defense. Instead of one .30 bullet flying, you have several.

    I disprove of the homeowner's choice of weapon only because I know it will go through walls and that includes those separating him and the others in the house. That, however, is poorer thinking than planning. Correct plan, wrong implements to exercise said plan. That's my opinion though, and nothing more.

    In an armed-invasion of one's home, one's immediate priority is protection of self. It would really suck if a stray flew off into a neighbor's house, but the only way to ever keep this from happening 100% of the time is by not using a firearm for home defense. Everything above .22 in size can penetrate and pass through exterior and interior walls, and often will.


    -B

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