Woman beaten with Hammer, no one helps

This is a discussion on Woman beaten with Hammer, no one helps within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Lawman Excellent question! Being new to CCW, would I be within my rights to stop and stick my weapon in this dirt ...

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Thread: Woman beaten with Hammer, no one helps

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman View Post
    Excellent question! Being new to CCW, would I be within my rights to stop and stick my weapon in this dirt bags face?
    First step - Check your state and local laws, which do vary state to state and locality to locality.

    But speaking broadly and generally, yes one could employ lethal force to protect themselves against such an attacker.
    as to coming to the aid of a fellow citizen under such attack generally the answer would be same but how and when and to what degree again check laws applicable to you for guidelines _and_ potential consequences.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natureboypkr View Post
    What would have anyone on the forum done if they had seen this incident occurring????
    At the least, call 911.

    More likely (in this circumstance, a man beating a woman on the head with hammer):

    Call 911, verbally confront the attacker while on the phone with the dispatcher, and then put 13+1 .45 ACP COM if they didn't stop immediately.

    I'm very confident in my H2H ability, so I'd confront the attacker (after/while calling 911) even if unarmed or only possessing my knife, but I would not attack him as I prefer to see my wife and child every night.

    In this situation, the victim had to get in her car and luckily made it to the parking attendants booth before passing out.

    The area she was attacked in is a tight packed neighborhood with thousands of students living there. It's possible no one saw anything, but of all the neighborhoods in the area, this is the neighborhood with the most active people in it.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    First step - Check your state and local laws, which do vary state to state and locality to locality.

    But speaking broadly and generally, yes one could employ lethal force to protect themselves against such an attacker.
    as to coming to the aid of a fellow citizen under such attack generally the answer would be same but how and when and to what degree again check laws applicable to you for guidelines _and_ potential consequences.

    - Janq
    Indeed. Your first priority should be to consult your laws. In WA you can use deadly force to stop virtually anything violent or felonious in the right circumstances. Not too long ago a man was assaulted and knocked down by an unknown assailant. When he shot and killed his unarmed assailant, he was justified because it was the least amount of force available to him to resist further injury, by nature of being overpowered, on the ground, etc. The original article about that incident is here.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array Sky Pilot's Avatar
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    "Many saw, and none helped."
    I have heard that so many times from victims.
    Colonel Cooper was right when he observed, "YOU are your own best protector!" -- but an attack, in public, and none raised a hand ...
    Mein Gott!
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  6. #20
    Ex Member Array ibez's Avatar
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    State law varies

    so a lot of "internet people" are bragging or are disgusted at what should've been done by the witnesses are nothing more that "net posturing" to seem so "righteous"

    I wonder how some would feel when they're locked in jail, because they carry a CCW, so they let their "moral" responsibility take precedent over "legal option" , and they have a family at home that was depending on them .

    HAVING A CCW DOES NOT MAKE YOU A POLICE OFFICER

    Everyone always want to play(seem) the "Moral G*d" on the net

    A lot of states only authorize you to, DIAL 9 1 1 and WAIT

    .

  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    Okay, I may be generalizing here, but as far as I know every state extends the concept of self-defense to defense of other innocents. This is not to say you get to be a vigilante and go out looking for trouble, but I can not believe there is a single state where a legal CCWer would not be in his legal rights to draw a weapon on the with the hammer, demand that he stop, and then shoot him if he prefers to continue assaulting his victim of threatening the CCWer.

    If you have proof, in the form of a verifiable reference to the statutes of a state that would not allow this, then please post it and I will stand corrected. Until I see it, though, I maintain that it would be legal to use a gun on this barbarian. Whether you think it is morally correct to do so is a personal matter and I will make no attempt to dictate to anybody's sense of morality.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibez View Post
    State law varies

    (sic)

    I wonder how some would feel when they're locked in jail, because they carry a CCW, so they let their "moral" responsibility take precedent over "legal option" , and they have a family at home that was depending on them .

    HAVING A CCW DOES NOT MAKE YOU A POLICE OFFICER

    (sic)
    I could be mistaken, but I believe every state allows you to intercede in a violent life threatening felony.

    As far as being a Police Officer, I also may be mistaken, but I believe every state allows citizens arrest for felonies committed in your presence.

    My state even allows citizens arrest for shoplifting.

    (sic)

    Everyone always want to play(seem) the "Moral G*d" on the net

    A lot of states only authorize you to, DIAL 9 1 1 and WAIT
    (sic)
    I don't dispute the first part of this statement, the second, well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Before you intervene in a situation, ask yourself this question: Do you know what the hell is going on in the situation you are going to insert yourself into?

    When you act in defense of another you are only allowed to act as the person who needs defending would be allowed to have acted.

    When you see a man force a teenage girl into a car and witness her screaming at him telling him to let her go, you may be witnessing an abduction...or a man being a father and taking his 15 year old daughter away from her 24 year old meth-monkey "boyfriend".

    Call the police.

    Observe the situation for as long as it takes for you to get some impression of what is going on.

    I imagine you would feel terrible if you came upon that situation and took a shot at the guy described above (and it was a great shot, 25 yard, single hand head shot on a moving target in bad light...) killing him only to find out that it wasn't what you thought it was...

    But you would feel just as bad knowing you did nothing and found out that a teenager was abducted right in front of you as well...

    Once you have an idea of what is going on, act appropriately.
    Last edited by Scott; January 18th, 2008 at 08:50 PM. Reason: profanity work around

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Before you intervene in a situation, ask yourself this question: Do you know what the hell is going on in the situation you are going to insert yourself into?

    When you act in defense of another you are only allowed to act as the person who needs defending would be allowed to have acted.

    When you see a man force a teenage girl into a car and witness her screaming at him telling him to let her go, you may be witnessing an abduction...or a man being a father and taking his 15 year old daughter away from her 24 year old meth-monkey "boyfriend".

    Call the police.

    Observe the situation for as long as it takes for you to get some impression of what is going on.

    I imagine you would feel terrible if you came upon that situation and took a shot at the guy described above (and it was a great shot, 25 yard, single hand head shot on a moving target in bad light...) killing him only to find out that it wasn't what you thought it was...

    But you would feel just as bad knowing you did nothing and found out that a teenager was abducted right in front of you as well...

    Once you have an idea of what is going on, act appropriately.
    I think the repeated strikes to her head with a hammer clearly demonstrate the circumstances in this situation. That said, your advice is sage, just misplaced in this situation.
    Last edited by Scott; January 18th, 2008 at 08:51 PM. Reason: edited quote
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  11. #25
    Ex Member Array ibez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matiki View Post
    I think the repeated strikes to her head with a hammer clearly demonstrate the circumstances in this situation. That said, your advice is sage, just misplaced in this situation.
    Even if thats the case

    you weren't there when it "started"

    how do you know that the "woman" didn't attack the person first and he was retaliating ?

    all the state laws I read , advice that you are negligent/liable when you "don't know whom the original aggressor is." and you intervene and may have injured the "original victim" or "assist the original aggressor "

    .

  12. #26
    Senior Member Array cwblanco's Avatar
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    That incident is a crying shame. On the other hand, I have read several posts to this site on other subjects where men have postively said that they would not get involved in these situations unless they or their families are the victims or potential victims. Although I can understand why unarmed bystanders might be reluctant to confront an assailant who is using a hammer, there are an unlimited number of things that they can do -- throw rocks, coke cans, trash barrels, or whatever is available, but the sheeple should be willing to at least do something.

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibez View Post
    Even if thats the case

    you weren't there when it "started"

    how do you know that the "woman" didn't attack the person first and he was retaliating ?
    I think you meant defending himself, as retaliation is not defensible.


    all the state laws I read , advice that you are negligent when you "don't know whom the original aggressor is." and you intervene

    .
    You must be referring to circumstances where the two parties are involved in a fight.

    In this case, an unarmed woman is being beaten on the head and face with a deadly weapon (a hammer).
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    you don't have to be there at the beginning to figure out what is going on. I agree with Matiki. This isn't an undercover LEO trying to arrest somebody. This is a man beating a woman with a hammer. This might be one of the very few situations where I would consider firing a warning shot. But I would try to do something after calling 911. And to the guys that said she could have been carrying a knife? I would take a hammer over a knife, and I'm guessing she probably wasn't expecting to get hit with a hammer, and I defy anybody here to take a shot from a hammer and still be able to deploy a knife or gun. Especially a knife where you have to close range to be able to use it; while a guy is swinging a hammer at you.
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    Don't bring a knife to a hammer fight.
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  15. #29
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    This is the sad reality of life. Nobody wants to get involved and you should not expect anyone to come to your rescue. Unfortunately very few people realize this and the authorities teach us to rely on them at all times for help. What I have said and teach for years is it is up to each individual to protect themselves. That is why we need to fight for our right to bear arms for if they take that away from the few of us that carry we will be in real trouble.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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  16. #30
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    Is this true?

    Quote Originally Posted by ibez View Post
    State law varies

    so a lot of "internet people" are bragging or are disgusted at what should've been done by the witnesses are nothing more that "net posturing" to seem so "righteous"

    I wonder how some would feel when they're locked in jail, because they carry a CCW, so they let their "moral" responsibility take precedent over "legal option" , and they have a family at home that was depending on them .

    HAVING A CCW DOES NOT MAKE YOU A POLICE OFFICER

    Everyone always want to play(seem) the "Moral G*d" on the net

    A lot of states only authorize you to, DIAL 9 1 1 and WAIT

    .
    Can you point me to something that shows which states would prosecute you for not just dialing 911 but trying to save a woman under attack? I think most states at least have a "Good Samaritan" type law, or their carry law says you can use deadly force to protect yourself or another otherwise you couldn't intervene if your wife or child were being attacked. I would of course call 911 but I don't think, and mind you we don't know everything about this, but I don't think anyone would put you in jail for trying to stop this attack. Even if for some reason the woman instigated the attack you don't know this, all you can do is go by what your perception of the situation is.

    By the way my feeling of why we turn our backs on our fellow man is because attorneys have us so scared we are afraid to help. Thankfully that woman in CO who stopped that creep with a gun in her church didn't take time out to look up what the law says, she acted.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

    Certified Instructor for Minnesota Carry Permit
    NRA Pistol and Personal Protection Insrtuctor
    Utah Permit Certified Instructor

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