'I'm not the murderer they make me out to be' - Page 4

'I'm not the murderer they make me out to be'

This is a discussion on 'I'm not the murderer they make me out to be' within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; In response to SelfDefense : Here's the stick that stirs the pot (no pun intended). I am to assume when woken from REM sleep by ...

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Thread: 'I'm not the murderer they make me out to be'

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array purple88yj's Avatar
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    In response to SelfDefense:

    Here's the stick that stirs the pot (no pun intended). I am to assume when woken from REM sleep by barking dogs and a splintering door/door frame that the subject(s) on the other side are the police? You could stand outside my door and scream the Pledge of Allegiance through a bull horn and I wouldn't hear you when I sleep. Point is, I am not stopping to ask if you are a good guy or a bad guy. I am not even related to Col. Prescott so no waiting until I see the "whites of their eyes".

    I am not arguing that he was not in possession of a controlled substance, but who says he was growing anything more than the banana tree as he claims. The stories above make no mention of what he was growing, just that they siezed lights, tubs, books and magazines along with a smoking devise and an [b]unspecified]/b] amount of marijuana. I have lights and tubs, am I now suspect to growing marijuana? I also have amonia and OTC sinus meds. Does that mean that I am running a meth lab? Where did you obtain the info that he was growing anything more than a banana tree? From an informant? Yeah those are always reliable.

    And no, I wasn't joking about being a social smoker. There was no disclosure in the article about the amount of marijuana, but because he had some makes him automatically a full-time pot head? Again, where did you get your inside intel on this case. I am only going on what I read in the above article, and there is no disclosure of the amount that he had in his posession, no disclosed proof that he was growing, no disclosed proof that he was using (aside from his own admission), and no disclosed proof that he was distributing. Again the case isn't about how much he had it is about the shoot itself. Once he realized that it was LEO's out side his home did he baracade himself in and start a standoff of some sort? No, he walked right outside and gave up. Suspicious behavior right there. Sounds like a hardened criminal to me. Yep, tie the noose, this one will be done by noon.

    You are absolutely correct, most places it is a felony to grow and distribute. Again, who said he was growing and distributing? Oh yeah, that informant. And yes I am aware of the damage done by marijuana, but it is far less destructive than you make it out to be.

    You say we already have to deal with the damage caused by alcohol. Should we outlaw that stuff again? Perhaps you missed that part of history class. Suffice it to say, it was a bad time for everyone...except those that didn't drink in the first place, and most of them supported prohibition until things got really bad. Granted, marijuana has never been legal, but the damage that is being caused by chasing down dime bags is just as bad as not regulating the sale, distribution and posession of the drug. As with anything, there will be abusers, and they will make the whole lot look bad. Believe me, I have smoked my share of pot in my day, and the only felony that ever occured in my presense (aside from the obvious) was the theft of my Doritos.

    I am not going to make this an argument for or against legalizing what is now a controlled substance.
    "A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in ... And how many want out." British Prime Minister Tony Blair


  2. #47
    Senior Member Array purple88yj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    We should mandate drug tests for EVERY employee at hiring and then randomly. We should require monthly drug testing for anyone on the public dole. We should require monthly testing for every student in high school and college.

    Get rid of the demand and the problem will become much more manageable.
    Wow, that's not an invasion of privacy or anything. I have no problem taking a drug test as I have nothing to hide, but to be forced into one so that I can flip burgers at McD's is a bit much. Besides, you think the cost of things is bad now? Wait until every company that produces anything starts to pass the costs of these "random" tests off on everything you buy, and yes they will. The money has to come from somewhere, and you will be the one to pay for it along with everyone else. Guess what isn't going up? Your paycheck. This idea rings of as much lunacy as cow farts cause global warming.
    "A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in ... And how many want out." British Prime Minister Tony Blair

  3. #48
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by purple88yj View Post
    In response to SelfDefense:

    Here's the stick that stirs the pot (no pun intended). I am to assume when woken from REM sleep by barking dogs and a splintering door/door frame that the subject(s) on the other side are the police? You could stand outside my door and scream the Pledge of Allegiance through a bull horn and I wouldn't hear you when I sleep. Point is, I am not stopping to ask if you are a good guy or a bad guy. I am not even related to Col. Prescott so no waiting until I see the "whites of their eyes".
    The entire no knock warrant process has been discussed ad nauseam here and has beaten to death.

    However, if you are doing something illegal then you are clearly more at risk of being busted.

    I am not arguing that he was not in possession of a controlled substance, but who says he was growing anything more than the banana tree as he claims. The stories above make no mention of what he was growing, just that they siezed lights, tubs, books and magazines along with a smoking devise and an [b]unspecified]/b] amount of marijuana. I have lights and tubs, am I now suspect to growing marijuana? I also have amonia and OTC sinus meds. Does that mean that I am running a meth lab? Where did you obtain the info that he was growing anything more than a banana tree? From an informant? Yeah those are always reliable.
    Is it more likely he is growing bananas or marijuana? Of course, informant information should always be suspect and thoroughly checked. I don't know whether that was the case here. Regardless, they did find what (apparently) they were looking for.

    And no, I wasn't joking about being a social smoker. There was no disclosure in the article about the amount of marijuana, but because he had some makes him automatically a full-time pot head? Again, where did you get your inside intel on this case. I am only going on what I read in the above article, and there is no disclosure of the amount that he had in his posession, no disclosed proof that he was growing, no disclosed proof that he was using (aside from his own admission), and no disclosed proof that he was distributing.
    From the article, he possessed an illegal drug and illegal drug paraphenalia. However, the following conjecture certainly has a sound basis. I still don't get the concept of 'social smoker.' Either you use illegal drugs or you don't. Mitigating it with soft language does not change that fact.

    Again the case isn't about how much he had it is about the shoot itself. Once he realized that it was LEO's out side his home did he baracade himself in and start a standoff of some sort? No, he walked right outside and gave up. Suspicious behavior right there. Sounds like a hardened criminal to me. Yep, tie the noose, this one will be done by noon.
    Maybe he was a hardened criminal. Maybe he was a drug dealer. Maybe he was a gang member. We do know that he shot a police officer who was there to administer a lawful warrant and they confiscated contraband.

    As usual, we need more information. In Tucson, we have drug related home invasions all the time. Virtually every murder that takes place is drug related behavior not unlike this story. Drug distributor asleep, home invaded, he shoots the thugs trying to steal drugs.

    You are absolutely correct, most places it is a felony to grow and distribute. Again, who said he was growing and distributing? Oh yeah, that informant. And yes I am aware of the damage done by marijuana, but it is far less destructive than you make it out to be.
    Hmm. Perhaps reading the actual studies might help those who think marijuana is not very harmful. Both physiological and psychological problems are documented for long and short term use. Perhaps worse, use of marijuana is directly correlated with high schooldropout and truancy rates.

    You say we already have to deal with the damage caused by alcohol. Should we outlaw that stuff again?
    Nope. But that is no reason to open the floodgates for other harmful substances.
    Last edited by SelfDefense; January 27th, 2008 at 06:26 PM. Reason: fix quote

  4. #49
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by purple88yj View Post
    Wow, that's not an invasion of privacy or anything. I have no problem taking a drug test as I have nothing to hide, but to be forced into one so that I can flip burgers at McD's is a bit much. Besides, you think the cost of things is bad now? Wait until every company that produces anything starts to pass the costs of these "random" tests off on everything you buy, and yes they will. The money has to come from somewhere, and you will be the one to pay for it along with everyone else. Guess what isn't going up? Your paycheck. This idea rings of as much lunacy as cow farts cause global warming.
    There is no invasion of prvacy because you do not have a right to be employed. I was required to take a drug test for my employment. No undue hardship. It took all of a few seconds.

    As to the cost, marijuana testing kits are avaliable at your local drug store for $10.00, including the lab work. Just take it out of the employee's first paycheck...

    What needs to be considered is the cost of allowing drugs to continue to permeate our society. In this case, it cost a brave police officer his life.

  5. #50
    Senior Member Array purple88yj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    I agree with that but there is no shortage of libertarians, who seem to think that if there is no direct effect on others then there should be no scrutiny of behavior. Libertarians tend to favor illicit and harmful drug usage. .
    Glad I'm not a Libertarian then.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Well, this particular story certainly demonstrates that the threat is no exaggerated. A police officer is dead because the murderer was a drug addict. I think that that the devastating effects of marijuana on the individual and family is virtually ignored by the media. The subculture of drugs is antithetical to education, productivity and sound relationships. It ruins the lives of children and adults all over the nation..
    I wish I could fabricate facts as well as you and the Brady bunch. NO WHERE IN THE STORY does it make the assumption that he is any more than a casual smoker. A police officer is dead because a person THOUGHT that his life was in danger. It is sad, and my sympathies go out to the family.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    No one has an expectation of privacy when they are breaking the law..
    So you are Johnny Straight Laced and don't even speed just a little huh? You even abide by the stupid laws that are on the books in your state?

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    No, it will not work. It hasn't worked in any country that has legalized drugs. For one thing, most marijuana users don't realize they desperately need treatment. Most will become defensive when challenged about their addiction..
    Same applies to alcoholics and gamblers. You paint with a very wide brush and are grasping for straws.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Trivial possession? You mean someone who has bought a small amount from a major distributor? Further, addiction to drugs leads directly to crime, home invasions, robbery and burglary..
    Yeah and sand came from big rocks too. It is simple economics. Granted the sale of certain controlled substances is illegal, but the same principles apply to sugar as it does to marijuana.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    It should lead to the correct solution (which I have )

    We should mandate drug tests for EVERY employee at hiring and then randomly. We should require monthly drug testing for anyone on the public dole. We should require monthly testing for every student in high school and college.

    Get rid of the demand and the problem will become much more manageable.
    I have already commented on this, so there is no need to tell you how wrong you are again.
    "A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in ... And how many want out." British Prime Minister Tony Blair

  6. #51
    Member Array jarhead45's Avatar
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    Just another no knock gone bad. I made a thread about this earlier. Lots of peeps responded that it was not anything worth worrying about. Maybe they werte wrong. At least for this guy. I woulod have shot also. Half asleep and someone breaking in, cop or no cop... you break in YOU better make sure I know who you are or two lives are going to be ruined. Yours and mine.
    Honor, Courage, Virtue. These are what makes a man.
    "The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps."
    Eleanor Roosevelt, 1945

  7. #52
    Senior Member Array purple88yj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    There is no invasion of prvacy because you do not have a right to be employed. I was required to take a drug test for my employment. No undue hardship. It took all of a few seconds.

    As to the cost, marijuana testing kits are avaliable at your local drug store for $10.00, including the lab work. Just take it out of the employee's first paycheck...

    What needs to be considered is the cost of allowing drugs to continue to permeate our society. In this case, it cost a brave police officer his life.
    Again, you are right, there is no guarantee of employment in the "Good American Handbook".

    The cost of a marijuana test kit... lets not forget about cocaine, meth, heroine, crack, LSD, and PCP just to name a few. What about prescription drug abuse? Going to test for that too. If so, what levels are acceptable for the lawful users? How do we know they are lawful users? Going to do random BAC testing? I can go on and on.

    What needs to be considered is the cost of chasing down the small change instead of finding the big boys. In this case it cost some wife her husband and his kids a daddy. It is unfortunate. There are worse things going on in our society than the pety pot smoker.
    "A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in ... And how many want out." British Prime Minister Tony Blair

  8. #53
    Senior Member Array CEW58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    I agree with that but there is no shortage of libertarians, who seem to think that if there is no direct effect on others then there should be no scrutiny of behavior. Libertarians tend to favor illicit and harmful drug usage.
    Most Libertarians I've met favor freedom.


    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    No one has an expectation of privacy when they are breaking the law.
    And apparently no expectation of privacy before evidence is gathered to show that they breaking the law either.

    "Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." - George Washington
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  9. #54
    Senior Member Array purple88yj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I doubt there are any potheads with licenses here; at least none that have done anything that would bring police attention to them.
    If there were I doubt any of them would admit it on open forum either.
    "A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in ... And how many want out." British Prime Minister Tony Blair

  10. #55
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    No, it will not work. It hasn't worked in any country that has legalized drugs. For one thing, most marijuana users don't realize they desperately need treatment. Most will become defensive when challenged about their addiction.
    Amsterdam...The City of Sin, complete with legalized prostitution, and Absinthe, the worlds most beautiful tulip gardens, phenomenal architecture in the older buildings, very grateful to the Americans for the liberation from Hitler, and I do believe a relatively low crime problem.

    My wife has gone there three times with one of her girlfriends, and was never accosted, harassed, or had anything bad in general happen to her. No fear of walking through town at night.

    And what symptoms are they giving off that need treatment? Spouse abuse, child abuse, assault, stoned and disorderly, public nuisance, peeing in the alleys, violent crime, robberies, transmission of diseases?

    I have a very low tolerance for stupid. I know many a pothead (mostly from my patch wearing days), and they are the most well adjusted, realistic, intelligent, artistic, non-violent, polite and thoughtful people I know. Not one of them resembles the "Hollywood Stoner" that you see on TV. These people are CEOs, CFOs, private business owners, cops, prison guards, teachers...Yeah, I will admit that there are a few extremists, but that is just their personality, just like we have a few mall ninja/rambo/cop wannabes running around here on DC.

    I would suggest that you stop taking the "anti soapbox preachers" word for things and do a little research for yourself to see just how bad this marijuana problem is in society. You don't see them knocking over the local garden shops for potting soil, grow lights, and pots.

    You do however see meth heads robbing stores for supplies, alcoholics beating their friends, family and the general public, then driving through red lights with people in the crosswalk. Crack babies, the list goes on.

    You are really coming across like a marijuana version of a Brady Bunch stout supporter.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  11. #56
    Senior Member Array BkCo1's Avatar
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    There was no just cause for a no knock raid here. They could have picked him up at work and taken him home and searched his house legaly. A sensless death caused by stupidy. I feel no knock raids are illegal and useless. There are to many other options.

    Self Defense
    I couldn't pass a drug test now. I take to many meds. I belive your thinking is completly irational.

    PS: I am being polite.

    Semper Fi

  12. #57
    Senior Member Array CEW58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Amsterdam...The City of Sin, complete with legalized prostitution, and Absinthe, the worlds most beautiful tulip gardens, phenomenal architecture in the older buildings, very grateful to the Americans for the liberation from Hitler, and I do believe a relatively low crime problem.

    My wife has gone there three times with one of her girlfriends, and was never accosted, harassed, or had anything bad in general happen to her. No fear of walking through town at night.
    I took a 3 day pass and went to Amsterdam once when I was stationed in Germany. They made me pee in a bottle as soon as I got back too!

    They didn't find anything illegal, but probably would have found an excess of caffeine if they had tested for it. They have some great coffee shops there too!
    The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. ~ Albert Einstein

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  13. #58
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Amsterdam...
    A highly productive society with a thriving economy (based on sex and drugs.) A true model for the world and an environment every parent would want for their children.

    Exactly what technology comes from Holland? Any?


    You are really coming across like a marijuana version of a Brady Bunch stout supporter.
    The big difference is that guns are legal and our rights are God given and protected by the Constitution. Marijuana is illegal and its use is demonstrably harmful for the individual, the family and society.

    Here is just one study that definitively links marijuana use to high school dropout rates:

    http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAb...102275073.html

    FINDINGS: The results indicate that any marijuana use was positively associated with school dropout and truancy in all models. However, when chronic marijuana use (weekly or more frequent) was distinguished from non-chronic marijuana use (less frequent than weekly), chronic marijuana use was found to be the dominant factor in these relationships. These results prevailed even after controlling for other drug and alcohol use. CONCLUSIONS: A general conclusion from this research is that all marijuana users are more likely to be school dropouts and, conditional on being enrolled in school, skip more school days relative to non-marijuana users. Weekly or more frequent marijuana use (chronic) had a larger positive marginal effect on school attendance than less than weekly marijuana use (non-chronic). Indeed, when non-chronic marijuana users were distinguished from chronic marijuana users in the dropout equation, the marginal effect of chronic marijuana use was more than four times the marginal effect of non-chronic marijuana use. IMPLICATIONS FOR POLICY, DELIVERY OR PRACTICE: This study has several important implications for educators, substance abuse treatment providers, and policymakers. First, all levels of marijuana use were associated with increased truancy and dropout. The fact that higher frequencies of use showed larger marginal effects than lower frequencies of use further strengthens the claim that adolescent marijuana use is associated with increases in school attendance problems.
    Is this what you want for your children?
    Last edited by SelfDefense; January 27th, 2008 at 07:51 PM. Reason: added link to study

  14. #59
    Senior Member Array CEW58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post

    A highly productive society with a thriving economy (based on sex and drugs.) A true model for the world and an evironment every parent would want for their children.

    Exactly what technology comes from Holland? Any?
    Which proves what exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    The big difference is that guns are legal and our rights are God given and protected by the Constitution. Marijuana is illegal and its use is demonstrably harmful for the individual, the family and society.

    Here is just oe study that definitively links marijuana use to high school droput rates:
    I personally don't have any time for drug abusers, but I hardly think someone with a little weed should be treated like Al Capone either.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Is this what you want for your children?
    What I don't want for my children is for them to fear the police.
    The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. ~ Albert Einstein

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  15. #60
    Distinguished Member Array morintp's Avatar
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    SelfDefense, the problem the way I see it is that because marijuana is illegal, it is available to kids. If it was legal, and had an age limit, it wouldn't be a problem at all. Marijuana doesn't cause disease, crime, or death. There is no test that has proven it has. Marijuana was made illegal through use of scare tactics and propaganda, and it was primarily done to help supress minorities, who were the main users at the time. Studies at the time commissioned by Mayor LaGuardia of NY failed to prove the harmful effects that were used as cause to criminalize it so the study was squashed.

    There is no reason adults shouldn't be able to make the choice of whether or not they want to smoke marijuana. It is helpful in medical situations. The effects are minor in comparison with alcohol. The plant itself can be used for all sorts of industrial purposes. It is not known to cause major health problems like alcohol or even tobacco. As far as supporting drug dealers and terrorists, if it was legalized and sold commercially, where would they be in the picture? The money spent on fighting, prosecuting, and incarcerating people for it could be saved, and instead a new tax revenue gained in it's sale. No, it's not the universal miracle that the pro-pot group would have you believe, but it's also not the ruin of society, death of children, terrorist support network that the anti's keep telling us.

    If it causes truancy and high dropout rates, keep it out of kids hands by regulating it. When I was a kid, it was a lot easier to get pot than it was to get beer.

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