Morning commute in Virginia

Morning commute in Virginia

This is a discussion on Morning commute in Virginia within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; My morning commute did not go so well this morning. I turned around and headed home after sitting on I-64 in Virginia for some time. ...

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  1. #1
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    Thumbs down Morning commute in Virginia

    My morning commute did not go so well this morning. I turned around and headed home after sitting on I-64 in Virginia for some time. A physco is shooting people in Virginia. Similiar to the incidents in Ohio years ago.

    Here is the latest information...

    NBC 29: Count on Us - I-64 Shooting Investigation


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array deadeye72's Avatar
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    It is crazy how this stuff starts happening more often when it gets closer to election time.
    I hope they catch this moron quickly.
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    BENELLI NOVA

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    Mercy! I lived in Staunton over a decade ago and taught in Stuarts Draft and Fishersville...NOT good. I echo the sentiment that they apprehend the perpetrator swiftly, and I hope all the injured recover quickly!!

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    Senior Member Array Juggernaut's Avatar
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    I haven't heard a word about this, I hope they haven't evaded police yet. I drive 64 from 250 to 183 every day.
    Can we discuss what would be the proper reaction to this situation? Would one simply call the police and keep driving while hoping whomever it is can't hit you? I mean if s/he's shooting at a moving car, how does one "retreat"? Would one be justified in stopping and returning fire? Or would one only be able to stop and use one's car as cover?
    Vis consili expers mole ruit sua.
    -Horace

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    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut View Post
    I haven't heard a word about this, I hope they haven't evaded police yet. I drive 64 from 250 to 183 every day.
    Can we discuss what would be the proper reaction to this situation? Would one simply call the police and keep driving while hoping whomever it is can't hit you? I mean if s/he's shooting at a moving car, how does one "retreat"? Would one be justified in stopping and returning fire? Or would one only be able to stop and use one's car as cover?
    I definitely would NOT stop...A car doesn't really provide much by way of cover unless you've got the engine block between you and the shooter. Otherwise you may as well look at it as the same effect as shooting a soup or beer can for target practice.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

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    No way would I stop. First, stopping to engage a rifle shooter with a pistol, especially when you likely don't know where the shots came from borders on suicide. Second, in our beloved commonwealth, we have a duty to retreat. Finding a solid claim of self defensive in this scenario, in Virginia, would be difficult.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Array Juggernaut's Avatar
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    Ok, the snag is 64 is a limited access highway. You have two options:
    1) keep going while hoping the shooter misses,
    2) turn your car into an ATV and take off into the woods.

    I didn't mention engaging the shooter, only getting out of/under your car. I've seen theboxotruth's testing of cars as cover and it aint all it's made out to be in movies, especially against a rifle. I would rather be behind a tree or in a ditch/culvert than pinned inside a car.
    Also, what if the shooter continues firing on other cars? I am familiar with Virginia's duty to retreat. What about one's moral duty to his/her fellow citizens? It's a bad scene all around, and probably not one worth getting dead over. Another thoughts to ponder is, an active shooter would be focused on his/her "mission" and wouldn't be worried about becoming a target.
    Vis consili expers mole ruit sua.
    -Horace

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut View Post
    Ok, the snag is 64 is a limited access highway. You have two options:
    1) keep going while hoping the shooter misses,
    2) turn your car into an ATV and take off into the woods.

    I didn't mention engaging the shooter, only getting out of/under your car. I've seen theboxotruth's testing of cars as cover and it aint all it's made out to be in movies, especially against a rifle. I would rather be behind a tree or in a ditch/culvert than pinned inside a car.
    Also, what if the shooter continues firing on other cars? I am familiar with Virginia's duty to retreat. What about one's moral duty to his/her fellow citizens? It's a bad scene all around, and probably not one worth getting dead over. Another thoughts to ponder is, an active shooter would be focused on his/her "mission" and wouldn't be worried about becoming a target.

    Ok, sorry, I missed that point. I agree, a car is poor cover, my preference would be to expidite my departure from the theater. In this case, if I read correctly, in at least 2 of the shootings, the rounds entered the vehicle via the driver's side door. That is a side shot, so continuing down the highway would definitely be a good idea.

    The other concern I would have with stopping in an ambush is not having enough information. There could easily be another shooter. Remember the DC snipers a few years ago? Even though there was one shooter, there was an accomplice, who I think was armed with a handgun at the time?

    Anyway, we each have to make our choices and live with them. Good discussion. I hope they catch the weasel soon. I'm not looking forward to the drive tomorrow otherwise.

  9. #9
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    More info from the news...

    "Police believe multiple gunmen are involved. They do not currently have a description of the shooters, but are following a number of leads. "

    "Police have identified three locations where shots were fired:

    The westbound offramp at the Ivy exit--mile marker 114
    The overpass at Route 690 around mile marker 106
    The Virginia Department of Transportation building at Yancey Mills "

  10. #10
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    Yeah, as if Afton Mountain isn't dangerous enough even without hostile fire.
    “What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctr View Post
    More info from the news...

    "Police believe multiple gunmen are involved. They do not currently have a description of the shooters, but are following a number of leads. "

    "Police have identified three locations where shots were fired:

    The westbound offramp at the Ivy exit--mile marker 114
    The overpass at Route 690 around mile marker 106
    The Virginia Department of Transportation building at Yancey Mills "
    Multiple gunmen...? It is too early to talk about terrorism, but...actions like this would indeed spread terror, and give grist to anti-gunners' mills during the election year.

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    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut View Post
    Ok, the snag is 64 is a limited access highway. You have two options:
    1) keep going while hoping the shooter misses,
    2) turn your car into an ATV and take off into the woods.

    I didn't mention engaging the shooter, only getting out of/under your car. I've seen theboxotruth's testing of cars as cover and it aint all it's made out to be in movies, especially against a rifle. I would rather be behind a tree or in a ditch/culvert than pinned inside a car.
    Also, what if the shooter continues firing on other cars? I am familiar with Virginia's duty to retreat. What about one's moral duty to his/her fellow citizens? It's a bad scene all around, and probably not one worth getting dead over. Another thoughts to ponder is, an active shooter would be focused on his/her "mission" and wouldn't be worried about becoming a target.
    Sorry I have to get a bit off topic here, but where is this "Duty to Retreat" in VA Code?
    I haven't been able to find anything in VA Code that says you have a duty to retreat in VA. Rather, quite the opposite, under the assumption that you have a LEGAL RIGHT to be where you are at the present(ie you're not in the act of committing a crime). The only thing I can find that references anything like that is old court cases:

    like this one:
    http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/0822051.pdf

    This one in particular spells it out quite clearly:
    http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...tx/2874042.txt
    Under Virginia law, if an
    individual who uses force to repel an assault is later charged with a crime arising out of injury to
    the original aggressor, that individual may employ either of two theories of self-defense. If the
    defendant was at some fault in precipitating the confrontation with the victim, the defendant may
    employ the defense of excusable self-defense, so long as he or she abandoned the fight and
    retreated as far as he or she safely could
    . See McCoy v. Commonwealth, 125 Va. 771, 776, 99
    S.E. 644, 646 (1919). That is, once the accused abandons the attack and retreats as far as he or
    she safely can, he or she may take reasonable and necessary steps to preserve his (or her) own
    life or save himself (or herself) from great bodily injury. Connell v. Commonwealth, 34
    Va. App. 429, 437, 542 S.E.2d 49, 53 (2001). In contrast, if the "defendant is completely
    without fault" in precipitating the confrontation, then, under the theory of justifiable self-defense,
    "the defendant need not retreat, but is permitted to stand his ground and repel the attack by force,
    including deadly force, if it is necessary."
    Foote v. Commonwealth, 11 Va. App. 61, 67, 396
    S.E.2d 851, 855 (1990). Under either theory, however, the "amount of force used must be
    reasonable in relation to the harm threatened." Diffendal, 8 Va. App. at 421, 382 S.E.2d at 26.
    So according to "Case Law", effectively, unless you've provoked your attacker, you have no "Duty to Retreat" in VA.

    I'm not a lawyer though and that's just what my layman eyes picked up on.

    ...not that I do or don't agree with it, but I don't like case law at all especially in cases like the above where there is no real "LAW" for it in VA to stand on. You're not being tried by the law, but by activist judges and it irritates the $%#@ out of me, but that's the way things go these days. Like the case above, they state "Under Virginia law" but they never reference any actual state code in those cases, only other older cases...hence what irritates me about our legal system. We've allowed them to "interpret" everything. IF I get arrested for something and tried, I want to be tried on the specific LAW, not some judges personal opinion from 20 years ago.

    ...back to the Original Topic...
    Anyone hear if they caught the shooter yet?
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  13. #13
    Senior Member Array Juggernaut's Avatar
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    Thanks for the reference, packin. I was only going by what I was told in my CHP class and what was in the rather thick book I got fromthe class. I did not know about the "precipitation" clause, I had understood (at least from one of my instructors) if one would be hung out to dry if one were to precipitate or escalate the argument in any way. I wish I had the time nowadays to research stuff like this.
    Vis consili expers mole ruit sua.
    -Horace

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by kazzaerexys View Post
    Yeah, as if Afton Mountain isn't dangerous enough even without hostile fire.
    You got that right!

    If they would just limit trucks to the right lane on the mountain there would be less accidents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    Sorry I have to get a bit off topic here, but where is this "Duty to Retreat" in VA Code?
    I haven't been able to find anything in VA Code that says you have a duty to retreat in VA. Rather, quite the opposite, under the assumption that you have a LEGAL RIGHT to be where you are at the present(ie you're not in the act of committing a crime). The only thing I can find that references anything like that is old court cases:
    No lawyer here either packin. Virginia does not have statuatory law. What Virginia does have, and the courts use for self defense cases is 100+ years of case law. Prior court rulings have pretty well narrowed the scope of self defense and what is justified.

    In Virginia, when someone is shot and dies, a homicide has been committed. The question for the DA and possibly, a Grand Jury, is whether the homicide was justifiable/excusible, or was it negligent? The defense for a homicide in Virginia begins with the words "I shot..." It is an affirmative defense, meaning the party responsible admits to committing the homicide (read crime). The burden of proof shifts from the prosecution to the defense to prove that the homicide was justifiable/excusible.

    That's how it is in the Commonwealth. No castle doctrine, no right to stand your ground. You must do everything possible to retreat and avoid committing a homicide. You do have a duty to retreat in Virginia.

    But please don't take my word for it. Invest a few $$$ a talk with a lawyer. You may be surprised!
    Last edited by ctr; March 28th, 2008 at 07:23 AM. Reason: correction

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