BAD-Serving Time for Defending Himself

BAD-Serving Time for Defending Himself

This is a discussion on BAD-Serving Time for Defending Himself within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Here is a letter I received from U.S. Concealed Carry. All I can say is man what has our country come to. God Bless Mr. ...

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Thread: BAD-Serving Time for Defending Himself

  1. #1
    Member Array mrlee7878's Avatar
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    Angry BAD-Serving Time for Defending Himself

    Here is a letter I received from U.S. Concealed Carry. All I can say is man what has our country come to. God Bless Mr. Fish and his family. And pray that the ruling is overturned. It still doesn't get rid of his court costs. Here it is as follows:

    U.S. Concealed Carry
    "Armed American Report"

    Visit Here for Membership Information!
    Want to get your own copy every week? LEARN MORE HERE!

    June 13th, 2008

    Dear Lee,

    I have something for you to add to your list of stuff to read... this is the "Concealed Carry Tragedy" that I refer to in the subject line of this week's Armed American Report. I am going to give you a link to an MSNBC article- it's kind of long, but it's a MUST READ. It's about a law abiding 57 year old retired teacher and father of seven who had to use his pistol in self defense within his home-state of Arizona, and is now serving a 10 year prison sentence.

    Here is the article: Trail of evidence - Trail of Evidence - MSNBC.com.

    And HERE is a link to his defense webpage: Harold Fish Defense
    I would rather sit before 12 than be carried by 6

    "And if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one".---Jesus
    Luke 22:36
    to the remaining eleven disciples following the last supper.


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    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrlee7878 View Post
    Here is a letter I received from U.S. Concealed Carry. All I can say is man what has our country come to. God Bless Mr. Fish and his family. And pray that the ruling is overturned. It still doesn't get rid of his court costs. Here it is as follows:

    U.S. Concealed Carry
    "Armed American Report"

    June 13th, 2008

    Dear Lee,

    I have something for you to add to your list of stuff to read... this is the "Concealed Carry Tragedy" that I refer to in the subject line of this week's Armed American Report. I am going to give you a link to an MSNBC article- it's kind of long, but it's a MUST READ. It's about a law abiding 57 year old retired teacher and father of seven who had to use his pistol in self defense within his home-state of Arizona, and is now serving a 10 year prison sentence.

    Here is the article: Trail of evidence - Trail of Evidence - MSNBC.com.

    And HERE is a link to his defense webpage: Harold Fish Defense
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

  3. #3
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Fish shot an unarmed guy, who was running at him while swinging his arms.

    I think most here would agree that it was not a good shoot. It is, however, a very sad situation.

  4. #4
    B52
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    Fish should have never gone to jail. This is a really sad story... The unarmed guy was crazy, had a long rap sheet, was mentally unstable, and tried to attack him. I would have also defended myself. I believe under the new laws in Arizona today he would haven't faced the same negative outcome.

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    Member Array mrlee7878's Avatar
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    Understandable the guy was "unarmed" and just swinging his fists, however, on Mr. Fish's part you just fired a warning shot at some dogs. You(Fish) obviously have a gun which is obvious to the assailant as well and yet this person is running towards you threatening to kill you. Now do you know if this person has a piece stuck in his pants that at the last minute he shoots you with. Ultimately, I personally would try to fight him mano y mano, first. Realize you have a guy screaming death threats running at someone who he knows already has a weapon. I might be in fear of my life as well. In my mind either crazy or he probably has has a weapon of his own. Either way, a weapon is obviously in the equation already and one person is verbally wanting to kill. Figure of speech or not. It's not something you yell at someone with a gun while crazily running towards them.
    Just my two cents.

    If this has already been posted I apologize.
    I would rather sit before 12 than be carried by 6

    "And if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one".---Jesus
    Luke 22:36
    to the remaining eleven disciples following the last supper.

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    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B52 View Post
    I believe under the new laws in Arizona today he would haven't faced the same negative outcome.
    Which laws do you think would have better protected Fish? I don't think the 'Castle Doctrine' has any applicability in this case.

    He made many mistakes in his fateful encounter. I think we can all learn something from analysis of his case.

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    This is a really old story, with several previous threads on the same story.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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    B52
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    SelfDefense,
    Since the attack on Harold Fish took place, but before the trial, the Arizona Legislature returned the law from "guilty until proven innocent", back to "innocent until proven guilty" in self defense cases.

    Among the myriad of "mistakes" made by the judge and prosecutor (and our fine education system), the judge would not allow the trial to take place under the corrected law, nor did he educate the jury members on Jury Nullification, a concept that our judicial system is founded upon which addresses the rights and responsibilities of jury members as the final check and balance on government as they vote with their conscience, in this case, that they are under no obligation to find a man guilty of an unjust law.

    ref: Harold Fish Defense

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    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B52 View Post
    Since the attack on Harold Fish took place, but before the trial, the Arizona Legislature returned the law from "guilty until proven innocent", back to "innocent until proven guilty" in self defense cases.
    He was found guilty by a jury. Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6? He received his hearing. I have read the case. In Arizona, you can't shoot an unarmed man no matter how scared you are. In fact, you cannot even display your weapon under threat of physical assault.

    ...nor did he educate the jury members on Jury Nullification, a concept that our judicial system is founded upon which addresses the rights and responsibilities of jury members as the final check and balance on government as they vote with their conscience, in this case, that they are under no obligation to find a man guilty of an unjust law.

  10. #10
    B52
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    I wasn't trying to have a ******* contest with you, I was just stating my opinion. By any chance, you aren't an old packing.org member,lol? Take care my fellow Tucsonian!

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    Ex Member Array TacticalCompact's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    This is a really old story, with several previous threads on the same story.
    Maybe so but I"VE never seen it before.. Thanks for posting.

    Personally, I don't know what to say. Sure, according to what we normally consider, this would be a bad shoot. But generally, we don't consider that a weapon has already been drawn justifiably (angry mad rushing dogs). The gun is out, and now you have a man running towards you as if he is going to tackle you, take your gun, and kill you with it.

    I would be personally in fear for my life. I don't know about Mr. Fish but I'm only a 135 pound guy. This is not a case of simply losing a fistfight, this is a case of losing a fistfight, losing your gun, then your life to follow. Very interesting, indeed. I am of the belief that if you have a weapon drawn and are justified in doing so, you are acting in self-defense if you then are forced to shoot a crazy person who charges you with OR without a weapon visible.

    And what's this crap about "hollow point bullets" and 10mm handguns? Why was this not defended? Everyone carries hollowpoints in their self-defense weapons. Would the jurors prefer we all carry FMJ so that when we shoot someone, the bullet goes all the way through and kills someone standing over on the other side of the street?

    This story makes me sick. An (in all probability and my personal belief) innocent man has lost years of his life that he can never get back, as his family suffers, because of a deranged maniac WHO LIVES IN THE FORREST IN A TENT.

    Give me a break. God bless this man.

  12. #12
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B52 View Post
    I wasn't trying to have a ******* contest with you, I was just stating my opinion. By any chance, you aren't an old packing.org member,lol? Take care my fellow Tucsonian!
    Don't get me wrong (as many do.) I really feel bad for the guy and it appears his defense was, shall we say, a bit lacking. I might very well have responded exactly as he did. I respect your opinion and do not disagree with much of it. The jury nullification part...well the smilies were simply a reference to a very in depth thread we had a few months ago, not your opinion. Feel free to read and contribute to it.

    This case occurred prior to my paticipation here and was probably discussed in detail. His consequences should serve as a reminder as to the egg shells we walk upon as we balance our own defense with that of the requirements of the law.

    And no, I was not a packing.org member.

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    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Bad situation all around. I think his lawyer is what really did him in. He let the prosecution get away with demonizing the 10mm and hollow points. If you all recall after the big jello fest the FBI held after Miami they decided that the 10mm is exactly what law enforcement should be carrying! The reason they got away from it is they had a lot of agents that had trouble qualifying with their new issued 10mm weapons! Did the "premier" law enforcement agency in the land issue "evil" weapons to it agents? And those safety rounds he was using? They aren't designed to be deadlier than FMJ rounds. They are designed to expend all of their energy in a rapid and controlled fashion in order to minimize the chances of passing through the target and injuring persons or damaging property behind the target. Oh yeah, those bullets are the same basic design as ammunition used by police departments all over this country. Are the police trying to kill everyone they shoot with those hollow points? No, they " shoot to stop." So how evil can they be?
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    Lets keep it from becoming personal , guys.
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