A bystander stepped in (one dead)

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Thread: A bystander stepped in (one dead)

  1. #1
    Member Array NKMG19's Avatar
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    A bystander stepped in (one dead)

    This bystander stepped in and his life has changed. I see this as another learning opportunity but want to hear what lessons should be learned.

    The district attorney ruled a June road-rage shooting in York was justifiable.
    By MIKE HOOVER
    Daily Record/Sunday News

    Brian P. Fentiman used justifiable force when he shot and killed a 42-year-old Hellam Township man after a road rage encounter June 27 in York, according to the York County District Attorney.

    After reading the statements of nearly 10 witnesses, York County District Attorney Stan Rebert said he is convinced the victim, Douglas Allen Need, was drunk and out of control when he assaulted a woman and threatened to shoot others in the 400 block of East Philadelphia Street.

    Fentiman fired because he was concerned Need would seriously hurt or kill someone, Rebert said.

    "This guy (Fentiman) was between a rock and a hard place. He had no option. He was concerned about the safety of others," Rebert said.

    Witnesses consistently told York City Police investigators that Need was the aggressor and that Fentiman gave him fair warning to stop, including firing one warning shot.

    He also shot Need in the leg in an attempt to disable him but hit Need's femoral artery, causing him to bleed out, Rebert said. Need died at York Hospital.

    Fentiman, 50, who lives in the Allentown area, was forced to make a quick decision between retreating and risking that others could have been hurt or killed, or firing at Need, Rebert said.

    "He (Fentiman) was very upset. He regrets what happened. He knew he had to do what he did but didn't relish the thought of killing someone," Rebert said.

    Rebert said his decision to rule the shooting justified came down to what was reasonable under the circumstances.

    Although Need was not armed, Rebert said, Fentiman could not see his right hand.

    "He (Need) said he had a weapon and threatened to shoot people. I don't believe you have to wait to see a gun," Rebert said.

    "You can second-guess this until the cows come home. But he was confronted with a dangerous, possibly lethal situation, and acted appropriately."

    Witnesses told police Need was driving wildly and cut off a car with two women and a baby inside. Need and the two women stopped their cars and argued, police said. Need struck one of the women and a family member who came to her aid. Need yelled at the woman and threatened the lives of others.

    When Fentiman, a passerby, intervened, Need charged him, forcing Fentiman to fire a warning shot and yelling for Need to step back, police said. When Need kept charging, Fentiman shot him in the leg, police said.

    Fentiman's attorney, Kurt Blake, said Fentiman fired the warning shot as Need charged him from about 4 feet away. He fired a second shot into Need's leg as the man continued to advance and grabbed Fentiman's shirt, ripping off a button, he said.

    "He (Fentiman) was in a no-win situation," Blake said.

    Fentiman, who has family in York County and investment properties in the city, was legally armed and cooperated fully with investigators, Blake said.

    Blake said Fentiman intervened because he couldn't stand seeing a defenseless woman "manhandled" and wanted to make sure she and those who tried to help her were not harmed.

    Fentiman has needed counseling since the shooting, he said.

    "He wished he wasn't put in that situation, but he did what he needed to do," Blake said.

    York City Police forwarded their investigative findings Friday to Rebert.

    Lt. Ron Camacho, who heads the detective bureau, said witnesses clearly indicated Fentiman had no choice. Camacho said he thought Rebert made the "right decision."

    "Need's actions were dangerous to say the least. They were very concerned about their safety," Camacho said.
    'He had no option' - York, Pennsylvania
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    Member Array ryanjensen's Avatar
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    Let's see ... warning shot (where did it land?), shoot-to-wound, all with a threat charging from four feet? Methinks the correct description is "first shot missed, second shot missed COM but hit" and threat was stopped.

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    Brian P. Fentiman used justifiable force when he shot and killed a 42-year-old Hellam Township man after a road rage encounter June 27 in York, according to the York County District Attorney.
    Your actions will be judged by someone who wasn't there.

    After reading the statements of nearly 10 witnesses, York County District Attorney Stan Rebert said he is convinced the victim, Douglas Allen Need, was drunk and out of control when he assaulted a woman and threatened to shoot others in the 400 block of East Philadelphia Street.
    The media will likely call whoever dies the "victim," whether they were the aggressor or not.

    Witnesses consistently told York City Police investigators that Need was the aggressor and that Fentiman gave him fair warning to stop, including firing one warning shot.
    Risky, and not recommended! Where did the bullet go?

    He also shot Need in the leg in an attempt to disable him but hit Need's femoral artery, causing him to bleed out, Rebert said. Need died at York Hospital.
    The aggressor may actually have had a better chance if Fentiman had shot center mass; said shot certainly would have been statistically more likely to stop the attack. (Of course, we see further down in the article that Fentiman did not, or was not in a position to, establish distance.)

    "He (Fentiman) was very upset. He regrets what happened. He knew he had to do what he did but didn't relish the thought of killing someone," Rebert said.
    Harming someone is very unnatural to all normal, decent human beings. It will be a life-altering event, justified or not.

    Although Need was not armed, Rebert said, Fentiman could not see his right hand.

    "He (Need) said he had a weapon and threatened to shoot people. I don't believe you have to wait to see a gun," Rebert said.
    Mr. Fentiman is lucky that Mr. Rebert is the district attorney, and that he doesn't reside in certain other states.

    Fentiman's attorney, Kurt Blake, said Fentiman fired the warning shot as Need charged him from about 4 feet away. He fired a second shot into Need's leg as the man continued to advance and grabbed Fentiman's shirt, ripping off a button, he said.
    Time for a tactics class?

    Fentiman has needed counseling since the shooting, he said.

    "He wished he wasn't put in that situation, but he did what he needed to do," Blake said.
    As stated above, it will be a life-altering event.

    YMMV. I'm glad Mr. Fentiman is alive, as are the others (who were the true victims--although road-rage arguments are not wise). I hope Mr. Fentiman does not have great trouble from the almost inevitable lawsuit.
    If the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.--Samuel Adams as Candidus, Boston Gazette 20 Jan. 1772

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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Although Need was not armed, Rebert said, Fentiman could not see his right hand.

    "He (Need) said he had a weapon and threatened to shoot people. I don't believe you have to wait to see a gun," Rebert said.
    I've seen people fire weapons through a jacket pocket,if your telling me you gotta wait to see a gun to believe your life is in danger then you may end up getting shot one day waiting to see a gun before deciding to fire
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanjensen View Post
    Let's see ... warning shot (where did it land?), shoot-to-wound, all with a threat charging from four feet? Methinks the correct description is "first shot missed, second shot missed COM but hit" and threat was stopped.
    In some cases I would virtually assume that too. Here we have 10 witnesses. And given the number of folks who think a warning shot is a good idea .... I'll buy it this time.
    Old testament....Shooting to Live 1942
    http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/...ng_to_live.pdf
    Newer testament... Kill or Get Killed 1976/1987
    http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/...Get_Killed.pdf

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    Member Array charmincarmens's Avatar
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    This guy is a hero. Reminds me of The Lone Ranger, he never did shoot to kill. Hi O Silver.

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    Fentiman's attorney, Kurt Blake, said Fentiman fired the warning shot as Need charged him from about 4 feet away. He fired a second shot into Need's leg as the man continued to advance and grabbed Fentiman's shirt, ripping off a button, he said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon1
    Time for a tactics class?
    Depends. Perhaps someone here (unlike me) who has had training and experience in CQC might want to weigh in on this. I have seen training videos showing defender using off hand to maintain distance and control attacker while firing shots into lower torso and legs with wrist against strong side hip. This is said to give you a better opportunity to maintain control of your weapon and deliver hits while keeping distance between you and attacker.
    "The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." G.K. Chesterton

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    Senior Member Array 762's Avatar
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    will it be justifiable keep him from a civil suit?
    Let's Roll - Todd Beamer

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    Member Array Shotdown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 762 View Post
    will it be justifiable keep him from a civil suit?
    Justifiable or not, I wouldn't doubt that he will get sued.

    G19, G23, P2000 (9mm), LMT Defender 2000 (SOPMOD), Colt LE6920, Ruger 10/22

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    VIP Member Array stormbringerr's Avatar
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    after reading the statements of nearly 10 witnesses, York County District Attorney Stan Rebert said he is convinced the victim, Douglas Allen Need, was drunk and out of control when he assaulted a woman and threatened to shoot others in the 400 block of East Philadelphia Street.
    ain't drunks grand!
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.”
    ― Thomas Paine

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    Member Array alfack's Avatar
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    A lot of people don't realize that a 3000 pound car is much more dangerous a weapon than a 130 grain bullet. Did the guy deserve to die for being an dork? Probably not, but to quote Black Sabbath "play with fire you burn your fingers and lose your hold on the flame."
    Last edited by Scott; August 14th, 2008 at 10:02 PM. Reason: profanity

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    I hope there is no civil suit...

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    Not sure if anyone else spotted this but...why did that lady pull over in the first place???? Because she was cut off and decided to tell off an unknown motorist?

    I'm sure some will disagree but I put the responsibility of the man's death on both the aggressor and the lady that decided it a wise decision to pull over because she got cut off...the shooter was just a gentlemen that was at the wrong place at the wrong time, and he's the one that will be paying for the rest of his life for it, with money from the suit and anguish from the memories.

    Keith

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    Member Array kubmiester's Avatar
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    Falcon1:

    Thanks for splitting up the different points. Some good learning points to think about.
    If only the militia can be armed, will the government pick the loyalists or the patriots?

    Was it our Founding Fathers intent to let someone like King George pick who can be a militia?

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    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 762 View Post
    will it be justifiable keep him from a civil suit?
    Nope,
    If the family of the victim is smart they will sue and they probably will win. The guy himself said he was shooting to maim, You never shoot to wound you only shoot to stop. This guy is probably going to loose a lot because he never intended on killing the man, but he did kill therefore he is civilly and in most states CRIMINALLY responsible for his death.

    Hes Very lucky for getting that DA.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

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