Store owner arrested for shooting at shoplifters - Florida - Page 2

Store owner arrested for shooting at shoplifters - Florida

This is a discussion on Store owner arrested for shooting at shoplifters - Florida within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by farronwolf God I hate it that the rest of you all don't live down here in Texas, but then again, what the ...

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Thread: Store owner arrested for shooting at shoplifters - Florida

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    God I hate it that the rest of you all don't live down here in Texas, but then again, what the heck would we have to talk about.

    If he had been a better shot, then he wouldn't have had to leave the darn store in the first place, then he wouldn't be getting charged.
    So very true. But honestly, in Texas he probably would have been charged with Reckless Discharge of a Firearm...and he probably would have been convicted.

    We don't take too kindly to those folks that miss.
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array sass20485's Avatar
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    Since the "threat" was no longer in the store and was retreating on the public street, he had right no use deadly force as he chased after them. Sure he was caught up in the heat of the moment, but he was wrong in the first place to start shooting inside the store under the circumstances reported. He had not been threatened and this was not a robbery by force and also does not fit the definition of burglary. There was no illegal entry, the business was open to the public at the time. This was a shoplifting incident, grab and run. Mr. Store owner had no clue about his rights and responsibilities in using his gun. He made himself the victim a second time by running & gunning after these creeps, as he now facing serious charges. Fortunately no one was injured or killed.

  3. #18
    Member Array Ken Grant's Avatar
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    The guy was wrong to run out after the guys and let off shots into the wild blue yonder without knowing where they were going.
    Too bad he wasn't a better shot.

    But lets face it, the laws need to be changed.
    Whenever someone is trying to take what belongs to you, you should be able to use any means to stop them from doing it.
    No matter if it is a nickle,a bottle of booze or a million dollars, it is yours and no one has the right to take it from you.

    If the laws were changed, I bet it would cut down on these types of crimes.
    If you just let the bad guys go even if you stop them from taking what you have, they just find someone else to take from.

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
    Why?

    You can't chase after someone who has left the scene of the crime and shoot at him in public in Texas either.

    People need to come to a little better understanding of TX laws.....it's not the wild west people!
    Actually you can at night for theft, which this would be I believe:

    § 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
    justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
    tangible, movable property:
    (1) if he would be justified in using force against the
    other under Section 9.41; and
    (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
    (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
    (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
    immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
    robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
    property; and (3) he reasonably believes that:
    (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

    (B) the use of force other than deadly force to
    protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
    another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

    Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
    Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
    1994.

    ETA: See you just gotta love Texas, the more you learn about it.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  5. #20
    Senior Member Array Ragin Cajun's Avatar
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    I think in Colorado he would have been in jail for the shots inside the store as well. You can't kill someone for a couple of bottles of boozs or property for that matter if your life is not in danger. Dumb move on his part. I wouldn't have felt sorry for the criminals one bit had they been hit but this guy gives others a bad name and now he will probably serve jail time for a bad decision.

  6. #21
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    he was wrong to leave the store after him....
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  7. #22
    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post

    [B](B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
    immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
    robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
    property; and (3) he reasonably believes that:
    (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
    2 Points......

    First, good luck trying to convince a jury that the bottle of hooch "cannot be protected or recovered by any other means......

    and second, nowhere in the deadly force statute does it allow for the indiscriminate and reckless discharge of the firearm.....which this clearly was.

    Don't misunderstand, TX laws are great but there are limits, and to perpetuate a myth that someone can up and shoot anyone, for any reason, is irresponsible and does a diservice to those who come to the forum in search of accurate information and guidance.......... Just my humble opinion.


    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."

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  8. #23
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    David,

    I was mearly pointing out that you can chase someone in Texas and shoot them for stealing your stuff. That is the letter of the law, and it has been done here around our area with no legal reprecussion whatsoever.

    You said that it is not within the law to do so, I posted the law.

    On your point 1, after they drink the hooch how are you going to recover it? Let them **** back in the bottle?

    On the second point, apparently they weren't very good shots, since they neither hit anyone inside or outside the store. I don't know that it falls within the indiscriminant or reckless discharge just because you can't hit your target. If that were the case many a LEO would fall in that catagory.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't think that what they did was necessarily smart or even within the law where it happened. I am merely pointing out that there is a legal justification for doing so in my state.

    I have never tried to put forth that you can shoot someone for just anything in Texas. I have always tried to post the appropriate statutes when saying that you can or can't do something here. That way those that aren't familiar with our laws can read them for themselves.

    For those that live in states like Il, MA, or NYC, Texas, and even your state, would be considered the wild west. IMO
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  9. #24
    Senior Member Array ronwill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    My thoughts, as well. Though, there were two thieves, and from the photos they look plenty healthy and strong. Basically, if the courts would never have a sentence of death for shoplifting, for myself I have a very hard time seeing how death dealt by a witness (even a shop owner) is justified.

    The news article states the men came in to "rob" the store owner, yet it only mentions a property crime (thievery) and not a person crime (robbery).

    The police charged him with aggravated assault, apparently for the chasing and shooting outside the business.
    If they were to attack him that then becomes imminent danger. He would have every right to defend himself. To attempt to shoot someone running away with a couple bottles of booze, especially when innocent bystanders can be injured, is wrong.
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  10. #25
    Member Array bigiceman's Avatar
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    What we have to watch out for when passing judgement upon this story, or any story is the truth of the report. Newspaper reporters are horrible at getting the facts recorded in favor of using the catchy phrases that garner reader attention.

    Questions I have that are not answered by the story:
    • How many bullets in a "hail of gunfire"?
    • How many people in a group of friends?
    • How many shots were fired outside?
    • How far is the business from the next occupied area?


    In my neighborhood a CHL was lambasted in an editorial for reckless discharge of retreating felons who had been committing armed robbery of my local grocery store. They made him out to be reckless and irresponsible for firing into the night out the store doors as shown by the surveillence video. What they didn't mention, and was clear to me as a frequent patron of the store, is that the empty field that was on the other side of the felons was more than large enough for even a rifle bullet to hit the ground before getting to the next occupied area.

    We don't know the facts just the story that the news printed. Does that mean he was justified? Based upon the Florida statutes posted, it doesn't look like it. Does that mean he discharged a firearm outside in his community? Based upon the report, it appears he did. Does it mean he didn't know where his fire was going to go when he missed? That we don't know. Basically, we don't know the guy was being a complete moron, which is the way the story tells it. He may have been and he may face the consequences. He may have known his backstop and just got too caught up in the excitement of having to defend his store from being looted.
    But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
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  11. #26
    Member Array Chris Dawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigiceman View Post
    What we have to watch out for when passing judgement upon this story, or any story is the truth of the report. Newspaper reporters are horrible at getting the facts recorded in favor of using the catchy phrases that garner reader attention.

    Questions I have that are not answered by the story:
    • How many bullets in a "hail of gunfire"?
    • How many people in a group of friends?
    • How many shots were fired outside?
    • How far is the business from the next occupied area?


    In my neighborhood a CHL was lambasted in an editorial for reckless discharge of retreating felons who had been committing armed robbery of my local grocery store. They made him out to be reckless and irresponsible for firing into the night out the store doors as shown by the surveillence video. What they didn't mention, and was clear to me as a frequent patron of the store, is that the empty field that was on the other side of the felons was more than large enough for even a rifle bullet to hit the ground before getting to the next occupied area.

    We don't know the facts just the story that the news printed. Does that mean he was justified? Based upon the Florida statutes posted, it doesn't look like it. Does that mean he discharged a firearm outside in his community? Based upon the report, it appears he did. Does it mean he didn't know where his fire was going to go when he missed? That we don't know. Basically, we don't know the guy was being a complete moron, which is the way the story tells it. He may have been and he may face the consequences. He may have known his backstop and just got too caught up in the excitement of having to defend his store from being looted.
    There is more to it. In FL once you go in pursuit you then become the aggressor. The LEO's can then charge you with man slater or murder instead of justifiable homicide.

  12. #27
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    There is an element here of disparity of force which well justified the initial response. When multiple thugs enter your store and start stealing in front of your eyes, only a fool would believe that they would stop because asked, however firmly. The more likely response from the thugs would be to beat or stab the owner. Their mere presence and actions constitute an existential threat to anyone with brains between the ears.

    Having just read the statute, it is not so clear to me that chasing them out of the store was wrong. There is an ongoing crime, and again, had he caught up to them he couldn't just ask them to give him his property back. A threat still existed. Had he been fast and caught them, and grabbed his stuff, they'd have pounded him into the ground.

    Not every act that can technically be considered a crime is in fact a crime. That is why police, DA, judge, and jury all have discretion.

    Do I think it was wise to chase them down the street while firing. NO!!!!

    Do I have any idea what Florida law really means in situations like this, or what a jury might do? NO.!!!!

    The result however is absurd, when the shop owner ends up being charged with a more severe crime than the perps.

    But then, we have seen the same thing recently when the drug smuggler received a lighter sentence than the LEOs who shot him.
    Do I think it should be considered a criminal act? NO.!!!

  13. #28
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    If Harold and his friends were laying on the floor after a ventilation job (three holes each), there wouldn't have been a problem.
    No reason to 'chase' dirtbags who are running away...his costly mistake.

    Stay armed...follow the laws...stay safe!
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  14. #29
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    I'll be waiting for the lawsuit where the robber's are getting counseling for post traumatic shock. I'm only half jesting.
    "The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." Eccl. 10:2

  15. #30
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    I see no crime here, my vote is not guilty (in favor of the shop owner).
    Who's buy'n the first round?

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