September 19th, 2008 10:36 PM
Let me add that the area where this happened is not exactly the high-rent district of Phoenix. Not putting anyone down, but the Phoenix cops get a LOT of shooting calls, and I would say there's probably at least one "officer involved shooting" incident per week. Twice last week, Phx cops were on the receiving end of gunfire, so I can easily imagine nerves were a little raw.
Chastising the wife for not thinking clearly and giving the 911 operator a clear description of the BG as well as her boyfriend/hubby is Monday-morning quarterbacking. Unless you've trained your significant other in how to handle the distress call, almost anything can happen. The woman was frightened and had a child in her arms, and staying out of harm's way was likely her highest concern at the moment.
What we can all take away from this incident is the need to educate the people with whom we live as to the proper way to convey information to the cops in a situation like this.
September 20th, 2008 12:09 AM
Note to members with wives, or significant others, or whomever. Make sure when others run from your house and tell the police that he has a gun, they also say, that it is their husband and he is holding the bad guy at bay with a gun. Then give a discription of the spouse so that the police know who is who when they go into the house.
Hopefully that will keep innocent people from being shot.
I would have to say if I were LEO and had woman come running from house saying he has a gun, and I enter the house and see a man with a gun I am not going to be thinking that guy with a gun is the good guy if that is all the info I have to go on.
This is a tough one. Maybe those CCW badges or whatever would have helped. NOT.
On another note. I guess some of you can chock one up for the what would you do if someone shot/stabbed came to your door. Would you let them in. There was a thread several months ago about that one. Based on this one, don't let them in, and don't get yourself in a situation where your going to get shot by the cops when they arrive. I said I might let them in, and I still might. Would just have to be there.
Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
Texas CHL Instructor
Texas Hunter Education Instructor
September 20th, 2008 02:32 AM
Absolutely, and we'll be getting the chance to vote for him again very soon. The neighborhood where this happened is not in an area that MCSO even covers, unless requested....
Originally Posted by TOF
Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.
September 20th, 2008 03:56 AM
and one of my biggest fears.
Actually there are a number of cases of off duty officers being shot in their own homes in this type of situation....
September 20th, 2008 04:20 AM
If you stay on the line the operator can tell you when the police are coming up to your door so you not surpised by them, and they can tell the officers that the home owner is armed. While excited udderances can be a problem, AZ law says a person is presumed to be reasonable when protecting his home against certain acts including home invasion, burglary etc... The tape which some fear whould have anwsered the question about if the police told the home owner to disarm before the the first shot.. the tape works both ways.
I would advise NOT staying on the phone with 911. Tell them you need police and an ambulance at such-n-such address, repeat it if required, then hang up. Everything coming out of your mouth is being recorded. While this homeowner shooting is regrettable it is also unusual I think. You are far more likely to be prosecuted for something that you said in an irrational state than being accidently shot by police.
It's a sad deal for everyone.
"Arms in the hands of individual citizens may be used at individual discretion..in private self defense." John Adams
September 20th, 2008 08:22 AM
Originally Posted by farronwolf
It appears to me that she may not have known her husband had the perp at gun point. She fled the house while he got his gun. Thats the extent of her knowledge I would guess. She really probably had no idea what transpired after she fled the house.
However I doubt she only said what was quoted. I imagine that one statement is out of context. And probably was said but I would imagine that this was focused on out of context too.
Who knows what really transpired here.
September 20th, 2008 08:43 AM
Thanks for putting this in the context of the locale. It does shed some light on the possible (re)actions by the Phoenix area LEOs.
Originally Posted by gasmitty
September 20th, 2008 05:41 PM
I thought when you dial 911 you are suppose to inform the operator that you are armed and describe yourself. Maybe the home owner couldn't ID the officer either if it was total darkness.
September 20th, 2008 06:23 PM
We need more info the media likes to play this game of putting only enuf info to prove their point. I would say their is more to the story than the media is letting out or knowes. I hate it when the media plays police to the police with to little info.
October 1st, 2008 06:39 AM
Agreed there are many missing details to make any judgement. Some things that worry me get brought up by this scenareo though
1. If I'm holding a BG at gunpoint on the ground, and am asked at gunpoint to drop my weapon....of course I'm not going to want to drop it right where the BG is laying for obvious reasons...but I'd be afraid any movement to put it elsewhere might be seen as an offensive action...I have "cops:shots fired" and there is an instance of a GG holding BG at gunpoint and the officers are yelling so loudly and continuously (as they are trained) that the GG had no chance to communicate his intent, and just dropped his weapon, inches from the BG....if I was in that situation I would be pretty confuzled. Also, I saw in some posts that your not supposed to be armed when they police arrive....so what am I supposed to do...say to the BG "well...the police are on there way...so I'm going to put my gun in the other room...but you stay on the ground because I'll run right back and get it!!"?????
October 1st, 2008 07:43 PM
Not staying on the the phone with 9-1-1 is an excellent way to increase your chances of getting shot by the responding officers. You know nothing about the experience level of the operator you get when you call 9-1-1. If you just say you need police and an ambulance at an address and hang up you might be there by yourself for a long time before either one show up. Your call may well be classified as a 9-1-1 disconnect. That means before anyone rolls anything someone at the PSAP is going to try calling you back. If you don't answer it may well be dispatched as a routine repsonse as either a disconnect or a check the welfare. Disconnects and Check the welfare calls are sort of medium priority calls. As they already had a call for shots fired, it could sit on the dispatchers screen for up to an hour before it even gets looked at, because they are busy with the first call.
Originally Posted by havegunjoe
The officers show up and see the lady running out yelling "He has a gun!"
Which is the more logical assupmtion here?
1) She is fleeing from an armed individual with hostile intentions.
2) She is fleeing from an individual who is being held at gunpoint by her spouse.
This is why assumptions are dangerous.
Now, if you stay on the line with 9-1-1 and state something like the following you will probably be sitting around the house having your recreational beverage of choice about twenty minutes after you hang up.
(operator) " 9-1-1 what is your emergency?"
(You) My name is ( your name) I am at (your address) and I am holding a wounded intruder at gunpoint. I am a ( your description) and I am wearing ( your clothing description) and I am armed with a (handgun, rifle, shotgun, pointy stick etc.) I am in ( room of house) and the bad guy is in ( room of house). If you can, then give them a description of him.
If you don't feel you can stay on the phone with them, put the phone down but don't hang up. Keep the line open. A lot can happen between the time you hang up and the time an officer arrives.
With an open line the call taker can give officers updates, like " sounds of a struggle"or " hear three male voices now". So they have an idea if the situation is still as you described it when you first called.
This should get you a lights and siren response and when they get to the house they should be expecting you to be armed. You may still get proned out and secured while they sort things out, but you will probably get treated a lot more cordially by officers who have an idea of who the players are and see what they are expecting when they show up.
Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis
October 5th, 2008 03:51 PM
+1 to Ram Rod.
Originally Posted by Ram Rod
Only the Homeowner ,the police officers that responded and the bad guy know what happened. The media tends to rush things onto the front page without fact checking. The old ( "If it bleads it leads") motto comes to mind. Hopefully we can find out what really happened so we can learn from this tragic incident and make sure does not happen again.
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