Hotel Shootings in Mumbai, India (MERGED)

This is a discussion on Hotel Shootings in Mumbai, India (MERGED) within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by mcp1810 They could just be patriots retaliating for our violation of sovereign Pakistani territory. Describing terrorists as patriots is a moral equivalency ...

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Thread: Hotel Shootings in Mumbai, India (MERGED)

  1. #46
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    They could just be patriots retaliating for our violation of sovereign Pakistani territory.
    Describing terrorists as patriots is a moral equivalency argument that cannot be justified. They are murderers. Period.

    Part of our current problem is that many have been brainwashed to believe the patriot nonsense when discussing the muslim enemy.

    I guess some think Charles Manson and Ted Bundy were patriots.

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  3. #47
    Senior Member Array Paladin132's Avatar
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    If they are within hand grenade range then they are within pistol range. Pistol versus rifle may not be that bad honestly, especially if you are inside. Some folks who do CQB use a pistol for various reasons, you have to be smart, but unles you want to be shot when a single round flies you need to be smart anyway - doesn't matter if its from a derringer or a howitzer. Break contact, save your family, and report in.

    I have to think that here in the U.S. this would have been over much faster. Running continuous gunfights over a three day period? Not in NYC or Vegas or LA I wouldn't think. If they were holed up with hostages and negotiating sure, but once they were identified as radical Islamic militants that might not even be in the playbook at this point. But continual shooting and moving around? No, I don't think so. Of course, our police and theirs are alot different in capabilities and bredth of action too. Its a horrible thing, and once again we see how despised much of the world views us, and has for a long, long time...

    And I'll remind some of you that terrorists have a method of fighting that is thrust on them - they don't have tanks to fight face to face with our military, but they have to fight with what they have and strike at the place we are vulnerable - public perception. And honestly, we committed terrorist type activities in the past - beginning with the Revolutionary War, going through WWII and the firebombing of civilian centers, and up into what some units did in Vietnam. Don't dismiss them. Some of them are smart, aggressive, tactically and technically proficient. They are patriots to some, animals to others, but if look at them as dangerous and rational folks, or you are not fearing their capabilities enough. Dispicable yes, the only way they have to fight, yes, and remember something else everyone: we do not, and may not ever, really know all the details. Don't be surprised if quite a few of the dead were killed by the officials in the crossfire, or if they try to blame Pakistan and it really isn't. There is alot to be found out yet about them - especially their motivations.

    And mcp is right - this is the international threat of the future, not the only one, but it will be a big one that the US is going to have to adapt to fighting and defending against.

  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by mi2az View Post
    It gets me angry that here in AZ, Restaurants that serve alcohol are off limits to me to carry. Do we need another Killeen Texas - Lubby's type massacre for honest citizens be allowed to carry anywhere ?
    Amazing, isn't it? Even back in my former state of liberal Connecticut, you can carry in bars and restaurants. The Legislature passed a Texas-style, "51%" law once or twice, but Her Governorship vetoed it. Maybe if she goes off to DC we can get that one passed in AZ.

  5. #49
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Describing terrorists as patriots is a moral equivalency argument that cannot be justified. They are murderers. Period.

    Part of our current problem is that many have been brainwashed to believe the patriot nonsense when discussing the muslim enemy.

    I guess some think Charles Manson and Ted Bundy were patriots.
    Well lets see..... Menachem Begin..... Bombed the King David hotel in 1948 and thirty years later was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. Yasser Arafat leader of the PLO ,for many years called a terrorist organization by the United States..... Nobel Peace Prize winner in 1994. Nelson Mandella of the African National Congress(another "terrorist organization")... Nobel Peace Prize 1993.
    Had the revolt by the colonists failed two hundred thirty years ago our founding fathers would have been tried and executed for high treason. The only reason they are patriots is because they won! If they had lost they would be viewed historically much as Guy Fawkes is.

    A Patriot is one who fights to defend their own country. Patriotism is not restricted to those that share our political or moral view point.
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  6. #50
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    From the WSJ:

    A U.S. counter-terrorism official said the U.S. is sending Federal Bureau of Investigation investigators to Mumbai since some of the victims were American. The official said Friday that the investigation is turning up evidence that supports the U.S. government's "working assumption" that Pakistani militant groups Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Mohammed are behind the attacks. He added that it remained early. "What you have not heard is any sort of suggestion at this point of Pakistani government collusion," the official said.

    Both groups are believed to have links to al Qaeda. They rose to prominence fighting in an Islamic insurgency in the Indian-controlled region of Kashmir, a predominately Muslim region divided between India and Pakistan.

    Indian officials have blamed both groups for past attacks in India, such as the July 2006 commuter-train bombings in Mumbai.

    Both groups say their ultimate aim is to reestablish Muslim dominion over the subcontinent, which ended with the arrival of British colonizers two centuries ago. Among their more immediate aims is to disrupt the India-Pakistan peace process.

    A previously unknown group, the Deccan Mujahideen, claimed responsibility for the Mumbai attack, describing itself as hailing from the south Indian city of Hyderabad, which is about 40% Muslim.

    Indian security officials have cast doubt on whether the claim was genuine, however.
    India has suffered more in the last five years from terrorism than most other countries - IIRC 4,000 casualties.

    A big part of the problem is India has been reactive rather than proactive with respect to terrorism.

  7. #51
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    Well lets see..... Menachem Begin..... Bombed the King David hotel in 1948 and thirty years later was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. Yasser Arafat leader of the PLO ,for many years called a terrorist organization by the United States..... Nobel Peace Prize winner in 1994. Nelson Mandella of the African National Congress(another "terrorist organization")... Nobel Peace Prize 1993.
    That sure doesnt say much for the "Nobel Peace Prize" does it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    That sure doesnt say much for the "Nobel Peace Prize" does it?
    Either that, or it doesn't say much for who we call a "terrorist"

    I guess the basic rule is if they are on "our" side they are "freedom fighters" it they aren't they are "terrorists" at least until they win and become popular in the US.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock and Glock View Post
    From the WSJ:



    India has suffered more in the last five years from terrorism than most other countries - IIRC 4,000 casualties.

    A big part of the problem is India has been reactive rather than proactive with respect to terrorism.
    One thing is for sure. If one thinks religion means a lot in this country, just wait until you get over there. While there are MANY religions in India (whether it is Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity (actually quite a large population, most people do not know this), Islam - radical and not, Jainism, Sikhism, Buddhism, just to name a few of the more followed ones), most everyone belongs to *some* religion and they consider it a personal part of their identity.

    And don't piss off the Sikhs. They are intertwined with a ethnicity which has a very long heritage as a warrior culture, bound by many rules of honor and such. In fact, they actually share many of the values we discuss here on this board. Basically, these are the type of guys who you don't want try to seriously threaten because they are very capable of biting back hard when they know their very existence is at stake. Honorable people who will fight when it is right to do so.

    Religious strife has already proven to be extremely bloody there, and this has taken it to a whole other level. Very bad times to come.

  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    How would we react if Venezuela launched raids and missile strikes on El Paso, or Brownsville or San Diego in an effort to kill Mexicans that had fled across the border?
    This is a ridiculous analogy. If the US had trained, equipped, motivated/encouraged, and harbored Mexicans who then went on to launch a terror attack on Venezuela that killed 3,000+ people, and if the US then continued to allow those terrorists to operate from within their borders in order to launch further attacks against Venezuelan forces, and if, in fact, US intelligence agencies were still supporting these anti-Venezuelan Mexican terrorists...then, and only then, might you have a point. Otherwise, this is just silly.

    Nevermind the fact that we are attacking tiny, remote mountain outposts and not major metropolitan areas like San Diego or El Paso... Seriously, mcp, do you believe that these are moral equivalents?
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  11. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAT40 View Post
    I thought we now live in a peaceful safer world now that Obama has been elected. This can't be true the media had a segment on how the world now loves Americans since we chose hope and change. Didn't the terrorists know that these hotels are frequented by Americans?, someone please send them a memo. I can't believe these guys aren't playing by the rules!! Shocking.
    Aw, shucks.
    This is all Bush's fault...

  12. #56
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    OPFOR,
    Do you think the collateral damage in Pakistan cares that they do not live in a major metropolitan area? Our armed forces, while completely justified from our point of view, have violated the sovereign nation of Pakistan. They are supposedly an ally of ours, but they have not given permission for us to conduct these operations.

    You err in your analysis of the analogy in that Pakistan did not provide the base of operations and training sites for 9/11. That was Afghanistan.
    Now substitute Mexico for Afghanistan, Venezuela for the U.S. and the U.S. for Pakistan and tell me again how the analogy is ridiculous.

    And Ok, lets not strike major metropolitan areas. How would the U.S. respond to foreign troops launching strikes against and operating in rural New Mexico, Texas and California. Instead of the French bombing Buffalo, how about they fire missiles at Attica? Does that make it ok?

    I am not saying that we necessarily have to change the execution of our foreign policy, just that we had better understand the possible consequences of that policy and be ready to pay the price. To believe that we can do stuff like that and not suffer reprisals is lunacy.
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  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    This is a ridiculous analogy. If the US had trained, equipped, motivated/encouraged, and harbored Mexicans who then went on to launch a terror attack on Venezuela that killed 3,000+ people, and if the US then continued to allow those terrorists to operate from within their borders in order to launch further attacks against Venezuelan forces, and if, in fact, US intelligence agencies were still supporting these anti-Venezuelan Mexican terrorists...then, and only then, might you have a point. Otherwise, this is just silly.
    This is precisely what we did do when we armed the Contras in Nicaragua. Who were the terrorists then?
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  14. #58
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Well lets see..... Menachem Begin..... Bombed the King David hotel in 1948 and thirty years later was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. Yasser Arafat leader of the PLO ,for many years called a terrorist organization by the United States..... Nobel Peace Prize winner in 1994. Nelson Mandella of the African National Congress(another "terrorist organization")... Nobel Peace Prize 1993.
    Nobel Peace Prize? Didn't Gore win some Noble Prize for his propaganda campaign?

    Had the revolt by the colonists failed two hundred thirty years ago our founding fathers would have been tried and executed for high treason. The only reason they are patriots is because they won! If they had lost they would be viewed historically much as Guy Fawkes is.
    I don't remember the colonists mudering innocent civilians. Yes, they would have been hanged for treason. That does not make them terrorists, now does it?

    A Patriot is one who fights to defend their own country. Patriotism is not restricted to those that share our political or moral view point.
    There are moral absolutes.

    A patriot is one who loves his country and supports the authority and interests of its government. It is not someone who murders innocents or supports insurrections to support some perverted religion.

    You like to call the murderers freedom fighters. Or, at least, you have difficulty discerning the difference, What of the freedom of their civilian captives or those they murdered? Sounds like terrorism.

  15. #59
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by libertarian5 View Post
    This is precisely what we did do when we armed the Contras in Nicaragua. Who were the terrorists then?
    The Sandanistas.

    Are you aware that one of the 1993 WTC bombers carried five Sandanistas-Nicaraguan passports? Are you aware that the Sandanistas support Kim Jong Il, Hugo Chavez, and Fidel Castro?

    I'm surprised that many cannot tell the bad guys from the good guys. It is the same as antis proclaiming that our concealed carry group is an evil danger because we carry guns and defend ourselves against criminals. It doesn't hold water.

  16. #60
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    SelfDefense,
    How do we use an incident that occurred in 1993 as justification for our actions in 1986? If we follow that logic any of the current attacks against the US could be for something that an American is going to do in 2015.
    Perrhaps that person in 1993 was acting in retalliation for our actions in 1986. Makes a little more sense don't you think?
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