Bad: KC Gunshop Being Sued For Selling Bullets Used in Shooting

This is a discussion on Bad: KC Gunshop Being Sued For Selling Bullets Used in Shooting within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; In a story followed on this forum in April 2007 regarding a crazed gunman who went on a shooting rampage in a Kansas City Shopping ...

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Thread: Bad: KC Gunshop Being Sued For Selling Bullets Used in Shooting

  1. #1
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    Exclamation Bad: KC Gunshop Being Sued For Selling Bullets Used in Shooting

    In a story followed on this forum in April 2007 regarding a crazed gunman who went on a shooting rampage in a Kansas City Shopping Mall, we now have the first lawsuit to stem from that shooting incident.

    Family for one of the deceased shoppers are now suing the gun shop (wrongful death suit) which sold the ammunition to the gunman 4 days before the shooting incident.

    On it's surface it looks like the gun shop (which has an indoor range I have shot at many times) may have some liability in this case.

    It seems the gunman used a stolen credit card which belonged to a woman whose card was stolen earlier.

    They are claiming that the store did not do due diligence by accepting a credit card which did not belong to the man buying the ammunition. In fact the card belonged to a woman and they feel if they did not sell the ammunition on that credit card, it could have prevented the tragedy.


    Link to story here.

    Gun Shop Sued for Bullets Used in Ward Parkway Center Shooting
    Last Edited: Tuesday, 09 Dec 2008, 4:04 PM CST
    Created: Tuesday, 09 Dec 2008, 4:04 PM CST

    OVERLAND PARK, KAN. -- An Overland Park gun shop is being sued for it's possible role in the 2007 Ward Parkway shootings that left three people dead.

    The shooting rampage ended at the Ward Parkway Shopping Center in April 2007. In the end, three people were killed and several others were injured including a cop.

    A victim's mother says a gun shop played a role in the tragedy.

    The mother of Luke Nilges, one of the victims, says gunman David Logsdon could have been stopped days before it all happened.

    "The senselessness is what troubles her I think more than anything else and the fact that she truly believes if the right things had been done this could have been prevented," said attorney Randy James.

    In a wrongful death lawsuit, the plaintiff claims the Bullet Hole Gun Shop negligently sold Logsdon the cartridges used to fire the gun with a stolen credit card.

    Police reports show the credit card belonged to Patricia Reed.

    "And, here you have a man who is not Patricia Reed using this credit car obviously not the card holder," said James.

    Reed was Logsdon's neighbor and his first victim. Police said he beat her to death, lived in her home for a few days and used her credit card to make purchases leading up to the rampage.

    Police found a receipt from the Bullet Hole in Reed's car.

    The Bullet Hole declined to comment on the suit.

    "But, we believe it contributed directly to the death of not only our client Luke Nilges but the other people involved because this happened four days before the Ward Parkway shooting," said James.

    James says his client is seeking damages for funeral expenses and lost income, along with punitive damages.

    The plaintiff's attorney says to the best of his knowledge, this is the first lawsuit related to the Ward Parkway shootings.

    Heather Claybrook, FOX 4 News
    -Bark'n
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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    That's sad. Of course if the perp hadn't stolen the card to begin with it wouldn't have gotten to that point would it. Maybe they should sue the credit card company, or the cardholder who let their card get stolen.

    It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.
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    Senior Member Array mi2az's Avatar
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    How about the miners who mined the copper and other metals
    "When the people fear the government you have tyranny...when the government fears the people you have liberty."

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    Yeah that makes sense.

    If you're a lawyer.

    When will it stop?

    What's to prevent some idiot from suing the LEVI company if the perp was wearing LEVI jeans?

    How about suing NIKE tennis shoes if he were wearing those?

    How about Fruit of the Loom for the underwear he was wearing?

    How about the T-Shirt company because of the shirt he was wearing?

    Or the car company that he used to get to the mall?

    Or the gas station where he got the gas?

    How about the tire company that provide the tires for the car?

    Or his Dad for not slapping the slobber out of him often enough to keep him straight?

    When will common sense be used?

    Laywers will be the end of us all yet...
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    Senior Member Array walvord's Avatar
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    I bet the mall had a "No Firearms" policy - sue them for non-enforcement.
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    Like you can't get bullets any where else?
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    An unarmed populace are called subjects.

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    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    When will it stop?

    What's to prevent some idiot from suing the LEVI company if the perp was wearing LEVI jeans?
    .
    .
    .
    Laws that mandate that the loser pays court costs. Frivolous lawsuits would disappear.

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    Laws that mandate that the loser pays court costs. Frivolous lawsuits would disappear.
    Laws that mandate that the LAYWERS that put forth these frivolous lawsuits pay when they lose would make them dissapear even faster.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    You guys are missing the point. He used a woman's credit card and they didn't check his ID.
    He was obviously not a woman.

    That's a failure right there. I know the gunshop owner is probably living like we all do, paycheck to paycheck, but this is a liability just like an AD. He screwed up and he'll pay the price, most likely.

    I just feel sorry for the guy. :(
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    You guys are missing the point. He used a woman's credit card and they didn't check his ID.
    Hmmm...
    I used mine about a hundred times in the last few weeks. Not ONE time was I asked for additional ID.

    He screwed up and he'll pay the price, most likely
    Not likely. He was buying bullets, not a gun.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Superman View Post
    You guys are missing the point. He used a woman's credit card and they didn't check his ID.
    He was obviously not a woman.

    That's a failure right there. I know the gunshop owner is probably living like we all do, paycheck to paycheck, but this is a liability just like an AD. He screwed up and he'll pay the price, most likely.

    I just feel sorry for the guy. :(
    That was my take on the whole thing when I posted it.

    And yeah, I'm feeling bad for the guy... I do think they have pretty good insurance. IIRC they are part of a large corporation and they have a pretty sizable indoor range so I know they have tons of liability insurance.

    Still, not matching ID to the credit card, in this case in particular... with the card belonging to a female is just one of those things which makes one's sphincter pucker hard. I mean, for crying out loud... all they had to do was read the name on the credit card!
    -Bark'n
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    They might have looked at it and been told it was his wife card. The card went through and did not flag as stolen. My wife has used my debit card before and wasn't questioned, and our debit cards have pictures on them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mi2az View Post
    How about the miners who mined the copper and other metals
    ...or the bank employee who did the paperwork for the card that the lady allowed to be stolen?

    ...or the lady whose card was stolen and used?

    ...or the bank that allowed the transaction to go through?

    Simply riduculous...

    It should be...if you sue and loose, you pay all costs for both sides.
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    well the card probably was not actually reported as "stolen" because he had beat the woman to death several days prior!

    Still performing due diligence is not just casually accepting a statement like "It's my wife's card!" Due diligence would have been to at least have the same last name along with a drivers license.

    With all the stolen credit cards and Identity Theft these days, I really do expect shop owners and clerks to use a little scrutiny.

    Instead of signing my cards on the signature line, I write "request photo ID" and still most people don't bother to check. I have had clerks in major department stores ask for my DL after seeing that, but most people just swipe the card and out the door you go.

    Now in this case, being lax in their diligence may cost this gun shop a lot of $$$$ if not drive them out of business all together.

    I agree with Hot Guns... he only bought bullets, he didn't buy the gun with the stolen card, and that's a big difference.... but you never quite know what a jury's gonna do in a case like this. It's a crap shoot to say the least. Will probably settle out of court per the insurance company's request.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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    Card Company Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Hmmm...
    I used mine about a hundred times in the last few weeks. Not ONE time was I asked for additional ID.
    Without commenting on what the policy should be, the fact is it is against both Master Card and Visa merchant agreements to ask for ID. Stores which do are usually violating their agreement with the bank.

    The policy is there because the banks want to promote the use of their cards and consider the signature adequate.

    If you "muck about" on the web sites of either MC or Visa you will find a place where you can report merchant violations, and asking for ID is one of them.

    So, the gun store owner possibly has a defense, if the signatures matched in such a way that casually they looked correct....

    My prediction, the case will go nowhere as the bullets could just as easily have been sold without any ID had cash been presented.

    And, I bet the plaintiff's lawyer doesn't want to take on the giants over their merchant policy even though those are really big deep pockets.

    Here is where judges play a big role. You don't need law suit reform. You just need judges who will look at this and say, duh, get out of here.

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