Outstanding: Controversy Erupts Over School Proposal to Teach Kids to Fight Back...

This is a discussion on Outstanding: Controversy Erupts Over School Proposal to Teach Kids to Fight Back... within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; If you teach kids to fight back we might have no use for those in authority. We wouldn't want that would we?...

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Thread: Outstanding: Controversy Erupts Over School Proposal to Teach Kids to Fight Back...

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    If you teach kids to fight back we might have no use for those in authority. We wouldn't want that would we?
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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulG View Post
    Food for thought: What would happen if everytime a bully, criminal, active shooter or terrorist attacked, the "victim" struck back with overwhelming force?

    Maybe I'm a dinosaur but my Dad always said that if I started a fight, I would get a royal butt kicking when I got home.

    But if someone attacked me, I should make sure that they NEVER wanted to try that again.

    Violence isn't always a bad thing!
    Sounds like the talks I got as a kid. Don't start it, but if you're in it and have no other choice you better darn well end it.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
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  4. #18
    Member Array frankinstine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulG View Post
    Food for thought: What would happen if everytime a bully, criminal, active shooter or terrorist attacked, the "victim" struck back with overwhelming force?

    Maybe I'm a dinosaur but my Dad always said that if I started a fight, I would get a royal butt kicking when I got home.

    But if someone attacked me, I should make sure that they NEVER wanted to try that again.

    Violence isn't always a bad thing!
    Amen. I think the world really needs more of that old school attitude. Its great to see hte attutides of some like HOTGUNS and sigguy229.

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mi2az View Post
    Just allow the teachers carry guns concealed in the classroom.Having 10 year olds to attack using back packs against a gun. Are they nuts ??????
    Not exactly...
    I know you don't mean to hand out guns with pens and paper in September...

    I believe that you mean for those with a CCW permit and perhaps, some special training), who would like to carry in the school??????

    Stay armed...and kids should know how to fight back...stay safe!
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  6. #20
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    There are two completely different discussion occurring.

    One, children should learn to confront bullies and other kids at school would aggressively attack them. They should receive age appropriate training that is amenable to their desire. It is unrealistic to expect every child to become a black belt.

    The second, which is the main topic, is whether children should throw a book at or otherwise fight an armed hostage taker(s). That is preposterous. We're talking about ten year old children! The question is whether they have a better chance of surviving by running and hiding or ankle biting a well armed man. Let's face it, a team of ten year olds would be no match for an armed man. Even an armed and trained adult would have little chance once they had a gun to their head. Only the best trained H2H combat veterans would make it a fight.

    The bottom line is that any encounter is situation dependent. It is a matter of judgement as to the strategy and tactics that should be deployed in a given attack. It is unrealistic to think a ten year old has the judgement, situational awareness and fighting skills to effectively stop (or even slow) an armed situation.

    Better they should run, hide, and hope for the best.

    Now, there should be adults, teachers, security, and administrators, who could be armed and trained for the possibility of an elementary school attack.

    Let children be children.

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array mi2az's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Not exactly...
    I know you don't mean to hand out guns with pens and paper in September...

    I believe that you mean for those with a CCW permit and perhaps, some special training), who would like to carry in the school??????

    Stay armed...and kids should know how to fight back...stay safe!


    Yes, Thats exactly what I mean. If they want to be trained, then do so. But allow staff who are open and qualified to do so. I do believe give defensive measures to kids like putting a book bag in front to stop the bullets or a massive run for it.
    "When the people fear the government you have tyranny...when the government fears the people you have liberty."

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  8. #22
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    ...there was a time where a plane full of passengers kicking and biting some bad guys on a plane was considered a terrible idea. Now it is pretty much the norm.

    If someone's life is in danger i encouraging them to fight back. That includes children!

  9. #23
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    Why the hell WOULDN'T you teach them to fight back?

    If cowardice will save their lives, then I'm all for it, but these sickos will just walk up to someone who is cowering under a desk and cap him in the head.

    They've got no CHOICE but to fight back.

    There is at least SOME chance of living if they fight. They have NONE if they assume the fetal position and are murdered while sitting therein.

    They are likely going to die, like it or not. I'd rather they die trying.
    "...bad decisions that turn out well often make heroes."


    Gary D. Mitchell, A Sniper's Journey: The Truth About the Man and the Rifle, P. 103, NAL Caliber books, 2006, 1st Ed.

  10. #24
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    I dont agree with teaching kids to fight a gunman in their school, they shouldnt have to deal with crap like that, kids need to be kids.

    Kids should be able to rely on adults to protect them and make proper decisions that go towards that (such as arming teachers).

    Unfortunatly this isnt the case when you get left wing anti gun dickheads with no common sense or reason.

    So we are left with 2 choices burden our children with their own safety and they will die trying to defend themselve, or allow them to just lay there, do nothing and die in an armed attack. Pretty raw deal really.

    Of course bullying, kidnap and sexual assault are different, we can teach our kids to respond to these situations, but a gun attack at school is a whole new animal to deal with.

    Perhaps parents accross the nation need to withdraw their kids from schools until the law changes to allow CCW by teachers. Mabey if enough people did this and for long enough then your state law makers will change the rules perhaps ?
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  11. #25
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    They proclaim that self esteem is very important to children, even going to the extent of not keeping score at ball games and what not.

    This is socialist type thinking and should be stopped before it does any more damage. By not keeping score it damages the esteem of those that are good at it and the losers don’t feel any benefit because they know they were losing.

    This is also a problem were we have the zero tolerance rule; they are both at fault if caught in a fight.

    I use to refer to it as Gestapo tactics, like punishing the whole class for a few students poor behavior because the teacher was too lazy or incompetent to figure out how was responsible.

    When it comes to a fight the staff doesn’t want to have to deal with figuring out who is at fault. By punishing both, the trouble maker wins. But we are not keeping score. The lesson for the good kid is, just be a good victim and maybe it will turn out ok. Which brings me back to the socialist teachings.

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    The second, which is the main topic, is whether children should throw a book at or otherwise fight an armed hostage taker(s). That is preposterous. We're talking about ten year old children! The question is whether they have a better chance of surviving by running and hiding or ankle biting a well armed man. Let's face it, a team of ten year olds would be no match for an armed man. Even an armed and trained adult would have little chance once they had a gun to their head. Only the best trained H2H combat veterans would make it a fight.

    Better they should run, hide, and hope for the best.
    You did miss something here, this is not about a hostage situation. This is about an active shooter entering a classroom and shooting at people.

    You think it won't work? Why, because cowering has saved so many lives in gun-free zone shootings?

    You think these dirtbags that choose to attack children are disciplined warriors who will calmly stand their ground and gun them down one after another? These cowards kill themselves at the first sign of resistance. Do you really think at Columbine or Virginia Tech if even six people with a little bravery had rushed the shooters they would have all been killed? I think the shooters would have been lucky to wound three of them and then the incident would have been over. This ain't Rambo attacking in a gun-free zone, it is usually a pathetic looser who is trying to make the news with their long-overdue death.

    You think 30 sixth graders can't immobilize a grown man? Why don't you try that one on for size. Find a sixth grade class at your local school and offer them a hundred dollars to pin you to the ground. Bet your immobilized in moments. Sure if you fight them viciously and hurt them for this bet you might win. If you were trying to stand your ground while killing them for no reason at all, I bet you lose. Once again, this ain't Rambo going into classrooms. When those books start flying from every direction mister "Hey I'm a big guy because I am the only one with a gun" will be cowering and covering his head.

    Will they survive if they attack the gunman? Ask the people who didn't attack at Virginia Tech and Columbine. No, not the survivors, the dead ones. Ask them how that worked out for them. That's right, you can't. They had nothing to lose did they? They just didn't know it until the bullets started ripping into their hope for the best.

    When the muslum dirtbags attacked the school in Belsan intent on killing as many as possible did the compliance of the children protect them? Would violently attacking the men with their AK-47 rifles have made a bit of difference? No, they would STILL be dead. They would have died doing something other than cowering, without having to watch their classmates taken off meekly like sheep and hearing the gunfire in other parts of the school as they were shot. They would have died without having to listen to the screams of their mothers, the female teachers and the other girls as they were raped and sexually assaulted.

    They are children, we should just let them be children. The bad guys have no respect for children, for the innocent. They know they make better targets. They know they can opperate freely with little chance of resistance, because we won't tell our children to fight back. 30 years ago people didn't want to tell their children to fight back against child predators. They didn't want to scare them with the knowledge that some adults could not be trusted and would hurt them and do terrible things to them, and if they were lucky, kill them. It seems to have worked out for us to do that. Why wouldn't this work?
    But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
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  13. #27
    Distinguished Member Array Colin's Avatar
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    We had a massacre up here, where the gunman ordered the guys out of the room and then shot the woman, people stood there and waited to die while the guy tried to clear the jam in his Mini-14 that he had mucked up trying to make it go full auto. Had they swarmed him, some would die but not all 14 that did. I hate to criticize those who where there, but it’s true they have been conditioned to obey to their deaths. I fully agree, run and hide for the kids as first option, but when that option isn’t there, teach them to fight to the death. Just as I am teaching my kid, see a bear or cougar back away slowly, if the bear attacks play dead (I know this won’t work on predatory attacks) and with the cougar if it approaches yell, scream and fight like the blazes. For thousands of years people taught this sort of stuff to their kids and it worked, so how come it does not work now?

  14. #28
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    For thousands of years people taught this sort of stuff to their kids and it worked, so how come it does not work now?
    Because we have turned largely into a nation of weenies.
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  15. #29
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigiceman View Post
    You did miss something here, this is not about a hostage situation. This is about an active shooter entering a classroom and shooting at people.
    Yep, a ten year old throwing a book at an active shooter will stop him in his tracks.

    You think it won't work? Why, because cowering has saved so many lives in gun-free zone shootings?
    No. because we are talking about little children.

    You think these dirtbags that choose to attack children are disciplined warriors who will calmly stand their ground and gun them down one after another? These cowards kill themselves at the first sign of resistance. Do you really think at Columbine or Virginia Tech if even six people with a little bravery had rushed the shooters they would have all been killed?
    There is a big difference between college age adults and little children.

    You think 30 sixth graders can't immobilize a grown man? Why don't you try that one on for size. Find a sixth grade class at your local school and offer them a hundred dollars to pin you to the ground. Bet your immobilized in moments. Sure if you fight them viciously and hurt them for this bet you might win. If you were trying to stand your ground while killing them for no reason at all, I bet you lose. Once again, this ain't Rambo going into classrooms. When those books start flying from every direction mister "Hey I'm a big guy because I am the only one with a gun" will be cowering and covering his head.
    If I fight them viciously and hurt them I might win but if I have a gun then I lose? Do you care to rephrase?

    Will they survive if they attack the gunman? Ask the people who didn't attack at Virginia Tech and Columbine. No, not the survivors, the dead ones. Ask them how that worked out for them. That's right, you can't. They had nothing to lose did they? They just didn't know it until the bullets started ripping into their hope for the best.
    It is important to understand we are talking about little children. Not college students, not even high school students, but children not much older than toddlers.

    It is the adult's responsibility to protect our children. It is cowardly for adults to abrogate their duty and even suggest that ten year old children should attack an active shooter.

  16. #30
    Member Array bigiceman's Avatar
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    Self defense, in all of your answers you talk about little children, not much more than toddlers. I don't see fifth and sixth graders this way. I didn't see myself that way when it was me and I don't see them that way as an adult now.

    Rephrase. Okay.

    For a hundred dollars if you fight like they are going to kill you for that hundred bucks you might fend them off. If they believe their lives depend upon holding you down so that you cannot hurt them I think you will lose. Please remember we are not talking about you in the scenario with the gun. We are talking about someone who hasn't got the stones to attack adults. When they walk into a classroom where they think they will be feared and obeyed because they are an adult with a gun and the children begin throwing things and attacking them, I don't think they will stand there calmly and hold their ground, dispatching the kids with ease. I think they will cower under the onslaught of the thrown items and piss their pants when they get swarmed.

    Next lets address the nessecity. They are not as likely to get assaulted by an active shooter in their school as they are to get sexually molested by someone they know in their lives. We teach them about child predators, does that mean we aren't taking responsibility? Do we protect them in their childhood to the point of making them helpless victims or do we give them something they can do to believe there is a chance? I am not advocating delegation of the responsibility for our children's safety to the children themselves. Far from it. I am delegating the care of our children squarely upon those who are in charge of them. I expect them to drill the children in the safety procedures of the school. They should be aware of, and practiced at, bomb scares, fire drills, and here in the tornado belt, severe weather drills. This is just another emergency drill to be trained at. It is not cowardly to teach them to do more than sit in a fetal ball along the walls and hope the bad guy runs out of ammo before they get to them.

    Were the Amish kids that dirtbag killed little kids? Would it really have made any of them that much more dead to have resisted right from the beginning? We have proven that passive compliance kills, in every situation; airplanes, colleges, churches, donut shops, banks, malls and elementary schools. You name the place, some kook has taken advantage of the sheep to make a swan song on their way out of this world. I think it is time we tried an agressive defense, starting in childhood and see how that works for a while. There sure haven't been any airplance hijacked in the last 7 years. If it works there, why not everywhere else?
    But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
    "Baa."
    LTC(RET) Dave Grossman

    Revolutionary War Veterans Association Shooter Qualification: Cook

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