Outstanding: Controversy Erupts Over School Proposal to Teach Kids to Fight Back...

This is a discussion on Outstanding: Controversy Erupts Over School Proposal to Teach Kids to Fight Back... within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by SelfDefense It is the adult's responsibility to protect our children. It is cowardly for adults to abrogate their duty and even suggest ...

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Thread: Outstanding: Controversy Erupts Over School Proposal to Teach Kids to Fight Back...

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    It is the adult's responsibility to protect our children. It is cowardly for adults to abrogate their duty and even suggest that ten year old children should attack an active shooter.
    These types of arguments is the result of our wussified society setting up impossible rules.

    The obvious action is to make sure that the teachers are armed AND TRAINED. Also, beef up security so that it is very difficult to get into a school with evil intent.

    Unfortunately, the powers that be have decreed that guns are bad, violence is bad. They have a zero tollerance policy against violence. If the kid defends themselves against the bullies, they get booted.

    We are turning our children into androgenous touchy feeling sensitive blah, blah, blah creatures who will want to negociate with the bad guy while he is shooting them in the head.

    We have to teach our children what WE would want them to do in a last ditch, life or death, act now or die situation.

    Because that is what we are talking about.

    If there is a way out or a good hiding place that offers some reasonable assurance of not being found, sure, the kid should take it.

    But we are talking about an active shooter getting past the pitiful security efforts at the school and reducing the children's choice's to attack and possibly die but maybe save others or hide under a desk and hope he kills your friends instead of you.

    If we teach the kids to fight back, and instill that mind set now, how much more effective will they be when they do turn into teenagers?

    In a scenareo where the gunman is in the classroom, the unarmed teacher has been taken out first, what would you want your child to do? Hide under a desk and wait for his/her turn to be executed?

    I don't see how training them to think for themselves and try to defend themselves constitutes the adults abrogating their duty?

    Don't buy in to the idea that a room full of 10 year olds can't do some damage if they have the right attitude, because they can.

    Have you ever been hit in the face with a textbook? If 6 or 7 kids all throw their text books at the guy while rushing him, it might buy a second or two of distraction so some of the kids can join in to overpower him or maybe make a break for the door.

    Again, this is a last line, everything else has failed tactic. Fight and maybe die or crawl under a desk and wait to be executed.
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  3. #32
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    Just a thought, maybe if the children fight back, the sheeple adult that should be protecting them will find their backbone and help!!
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  4. #33
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    I would rather they concentrate more on getting the Teachers up to speed on protecting our kids in a situation like this. With that said I don't think it is entirely wrong what they are doing either.

    I personally have told my kids, as they each reach the age and maturity level that I think they can fully comprehend what I am teaching them that I expect them to defend themselves and others who can't if there is ever a situation.

    I agree with many that the wussification of America has had a terrible effect on many of "us". I remember a time when 2 boys would have a problem they were taken down to the Coach and he cleared out the gym and put gloves on each boy and they were instructed to "work it out" Nowadays even if you are jumped and defend yourself you are in trouble, very wrong message is sent in that situation.

    I can see a BG walking in to a class and start up, and as soon as he does each kid just starts throwing text books at him. I think that would certainly buy the Teacher time to react appropriately. Some kids would most certainly be hit, but not near as many as would if they were all cowering in the corner together.

    The problem is this, who's kid gets shot? Your's, mine? I know I personally, after the grief of loosing my child, would feel a bit of honor if I found out that my Son was the first to stand up in defense of his classmates and hopefully his death would serve a greater purpose.
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  5. #34
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote:Originally Posted by SelfDefense

    "It is the adult's responsibility to protect our children. It is cowardly for adults to abrogate their duty and even suggest that ten year old children should attack an active shooter."

    The reason we are in this situation today is because the ones in charge were taught beginning at an early age to never fight. That someone else will take care of them. They believe that authority should never be questioned.

    If we expect to change this we have to begin early. Maybe with luck the next generation will be the ones that change the rules. It seems silly to me to wait till someone is almost an adult and then try to make relearn their normal survival instincts.

    Michael

  6. #35
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    The reason we are in this situation today is because the ones in charge were taught beginning at an early age to never fight. That someone else will take care of them. They believe that authority should never be questioned.
    Emphatically no. The issue is whether ten year old chldren have sufficient judgement to make tactical decisions against an active shooter. Should they attack or take cover? Should they throw a book and run at an armed man or hide and hope to not be discovered? Or yes, beg for mercy. These are little girls and boys.

    That this is even a topic is astounding. Of course, the adults need to nuture and protect our children. It has nothing to do whether an adult was taught of not taught to fight. It is the responsibility of the adults to protect the children. Encouraging children to certainly be killed because of some adult ideal of self defense is sheer nonsense.

    And yes, children SHOULD expect adults to take care of them.

    If we expect to change this we have to begin early. Maybe with luck the next generation will be the ones that change the rules. It seems silly to me to wait till someone is almost an adult and then try to make relearn their normal survival instincts.
    Making children into little fighters seems more an Islamic ideal, not an American ideal. Indoctrinating children into this mindset is no different than than what many feel is an indoctrination into becoming sheep.

    It is the responsibility of adults to protect children.

  7. #36
    Distinguished Member Array Colin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Emphatically no. The issue is whether ten year old chldren have sufficient judgement to make tactical decisions against an active shooter. Should they attack or take cover? Should they throw a book and run at an armed man or hide and hope to not be discovered? Or yes, beg for mercy. These are little girls and boys.

    That this is even a topic is astounding. Of course, the adults need to nuture and protect our children. It has nothing to do whether an adult was taught of not taught to fight. It is the responsibility of the adults to protect the children. Encouraging children to certainly be killed because of some adult ideal of self defense is sheer nonsense.

    And yes, children SHOULD expect adults to take care of them.



    Making children into little fighters seems more an Islamic ideal, not an American ideal. Indoctrinating children into this mindset is no different than than what many feel is an indoctrination into becoming sheep.

    It is the responsibility of adults to protect children.
    True the adults should be doing more to protect the kids, but it still is a good idea to teach them to protect themselves. Kids are smart they will figure out with proper instruction what to do and when to do it. You can teach a kid to fight hard when required and to offer a helping hand as well, it's not just an American ideal, it is what made the Western world strong. the ability to fight hard and then put down the gun and help your former enemy rebuild and relearn how to live.

  8. #37
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    Thoughts on Children:

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Emphatically no. The issue is whether ten year old chldren have sufficient judgement to make tactical decisions against an active shooter. Should they attack or take cover? Should they throw a book and run at an armed man or hide and hope to not be discovered? Or yes, beg for mercy. These are little girls and boys.
    It is the responsibility of adults to protect children.
    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Quote:Originally Posted by SelfDefense

    If we expect to change this we have to begin early. Maybe with luck the next generation will be the ones that change the rules. It seems silly to me to wait till someone is almost an adult and then try to make relearn their normal survival instincts.
    I think in part it needs to begin much earlier, but not in teaching children to stand up and fight. We need to teach children how to make choices and live with the consequences, good and bad. This can start as early as birth. (I teach early childhood, 0-3 years. It's possible. Start with easy choices: are you done eating? Do you want this toy or that. Ok, that's what you've got for a couple minutes.") We also need to teach them that adults aren't infallible. if you make a mistake, admit it. If you spill something, show how you clean it up. Some mistakes are permanant. Some things can't be fixed or replaced. Show children that too, in your actions and theirs.
    When a child gets to be about 6, they start to be interested in ethics and morality... but they're very black and white about it. This is a great time to start talking about trusting their gut if there's no one to ask for help, and about situations with no black and white solutions. "What do you think we should do with this $10- buy food for the food bank, or give it to the animal shelter to buy food for the animals? Why?" "What do you do if someone tells you their mommy hurts them?"
    I think if you start to teach a child how to make choices and that they are competent, capable people at their skill and experience level, they may be able to make these choices at 10. But if you don't teach them how to deal with difficult situations, it won't matter what you try to teach them at 10, when the world falls apart around them, they'll cower anyway.

  9. #38
    Member Array bigiceman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Making children into little fighters seems more an Islamic ideal, not an American ideal. Indoctrinating children into this mindset is no different than than what many feel is an indoctrination into becoming sheep.
    No one here is advocating turning the children into little fighters. We are not talking about strapping an explosive vest on and blowing themselves up, or handing them an AK-47 and telling them to stand in the street and kill infidels with it. We are talking about emergency actions in emergency situations and how to react. We are talking about being prepared, which is very much an American ideal. We are not talking about expecting someone else to do our work or thinking for us or always being there to protect us. We are telling them if someone is trying to kill you don't just sit there, do something!

    Let's look at another emergency that is life threatening, a fire in a school. Would you expect them to leave their classrooms and go to the scene of the fire and shoot spitballs at it to put it out? No you would expect them to evacuate the school when the first smoke alarm went off. What if it was in their own classroom blocking the door, and their was a fire extinguisher in the room? Would you expect them to cower in the opposite corner and wait for the firemen or use the extinguisher? There is a fire in a trash can. Run screaming from the room or flip the can over and put it out?

    We are not talking about every child in every classroom rushing to the scene of an active shooter and swarming them like ants. We are talking about the children trapped in a classroom by someone with a firearm who is blocking the door and is probably going to kill them no matter what they do. We aren't trying to make it their job, just to give them some emergency preparedness and some choices.
    But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
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  10. #39
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigiceman View Post
    We are talking about emergency actions in emergency situations and how to react. We are talking about being prepared, which is very much an American ideal. We are not talking about expecting someone else to do our work or thinking for us or always being there to protect us. We are telling them if someone is trying to kill you don't just sit there, do something!
    Yes, but what is being recommended is not the best course of action. And yes, we are talking about the responsibility of adults to protect children. I notice a lot of projection in this thread, where our self defense skills and our judgement skills should be expected from a ten year old child.

    Let's look at another emergency that is life threatening, a fire in a school. Would you expect them to leave their classrooms and go to the scene of the fire and shoot spitballs at it to put it out? No you would expect them to evacuate the school when the first smoke alarm went off. What if it was in their own classroom blocking the door, and their was a fire extinguisher in the room? Would you expect them to cower in the opposite corner and wait for the firemen or use the extinguisher? There is a fire in a trash can. Run screaming from the room or flip the can over and put it out?
    I would expect the adults to take control of the situation and make appropriate decisions for the children. All schools provide evacuation training, not firefighting training for the children.

    Interestingly, in my place of work there are signs above every fire extinguisher informing employees they are not expected to use the extinguisher but rather evacuate and pull the alarm. This was caused because a laptop battery caught fire and the guy unloaded an extinguisher, ruining every computer in the room. As we learned in another thread, it requires training to use a fire extinguisher properly. Further, different extinguishers should be used for different types of fires. And you are suggesting little children should make those decisions?

    We are not talking about every child in every classroom rushing to the scene of an active shooter and swarming them like ants. We are talking about the children trapped in a classroom by someone with a firearm who is blocking the door and is probably going to kill them no matter what they do. We aren't trying to make it their job, just to give them some emergency preparedness and some choices.
    The problm is they are unable to use proper judgement to make those choices. That is why they are taught to evacuate when there is a fire. Not contemplate the consequences of a choice they might make.

    If the pilot of an airplane suddenly died would you expect a ten year old to land the plane? Shall we train ten year olds to fly planes just in case they find themselves in that emergency situation? Or would it be better for an adult to handle the problem?

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Yes, but what is being recommended is not the best course of action. And yes, we are talking about the responsibility of adults to protect children. I notice a lot of projection in this thread, where our self defense skills and our judgement skills should be expected from a ten year old child.
    What is the best course of action for a ten year old child to take when a person with a drawn firearm enters the room they are in, a room with only one entrance the gunman is standing in? The adults you so sternly adjure to have protected them have failed. The teacher has no firearm, and they won't ever in most places in this country. What are the children to do? Should they hide? Where will they hide? Should they get under their desks? Should they all run to a back corner and curl up in a ball? Should they get on their knees and cry for mercy?

    I am not projecting any defensive/tactical skills or adult judgement onto the children. It is very simple. If a person with a gun in their hand enters your classroom; 1) scream and yell, 2) grab the nearest item at hand and throw it at them, 3) charge them and grab them and dogpile them to the ground. They can do this every time it happens because there are no negative consequences, none. If the person was going to shoot them they were going to shoot them. If they weren't they will back out. If they are a good guy (LEO or staff) who thought they had a need to enter with a drawn firearm the kids aren't being told to kill them, just immobilize them so they cannot hurt them.

    You berate the idea of fighting a fire, but forget the circumstances I gave you. If the choice is to stay in a room with a fire blocking the door, and doing nothing, or using the extinguisher, even if untrained, I will take the attempt at using the extinguisher. If that fails then I can go hug the floor at the back of the room. Just because some moron of an adult cannot push his laptop into a garbage can and carry it out of the building instead of discharging a fire extinguisher he doesn't know how to use, and didn't take the time to read the instructions on, is not the same.

    10 year old flying a plane? Some can, but that is beyond the scope and beyond the discussion. How about a bus? If the bus driver has a heart attack and dies should a 10 year old try to steer the bus to a safe stop or just let it careen down the street on its own? There are numerous examples of real children, I don't remember their age, but 10 wouldn't be unreasonable, do just that. HERE is a similar story from this year in Ohio. This is another situation where a large group, composed of children and one adult are put into a circumstance that calls for some action, not just sitting back and waiting for an adult to magically appear to take care of things.

    Children's judgement (even as young as ten) isn't so bad that we have to tell them over and over to not do anything under any situation because they are too stupid to think and act. The whole purpose of the proposed training that started this thread was to provide training so that they don't have to rely solely upon their own individual judgement, but have some guidance and some training from adults they trust, to guide them if one of a few horrible circumstances develop.
    But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
    "Baa."
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  12. #41
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigiceman View Post
    What is the best course of action for a ten year old child to take when a person with a drawn firearm enters the room they are in, a room with only one entrance the gunman is standing in?
    Is this a closet? Most rooms, particularly school rooms have multiple exits. I will not opine on the best course of action. However, expecting and training ten year old children to confront an active shooter, determining what strategy to employ, whether they should use their hand to hand skills to disarm the attacker or throw a Dr. Seuss book is nonsense.

    The adults you so sternly adjure to have protected them have failed. The teacher has no firearm, and they won't ever in most places in this country.
    That problem cannot be addressed by expecting children to fend for themselves. Especially if they a given bad advice.

    What are the children to do? Should they hide? Where will they hide? Should they get under their desks? Should they all run to a back corner and curl up in a ball? Should they get on their knees and cry for mercy?
    They could call 9/11, evecuate through a window, hide in a closet, or, yes, even submit. Children are not miniature adults.

    I am not projecting any defensive/tactical skills or adult judgement onto the children. It is very simple. If a person with a gun in their hand enters your classroom; 1) scream and yell
    That seems reasonable.

    2) grab the nearest item at hand and throw it at them
    That is stupid.

    3) charge them and grab them and dogpile them to the ground.


    Are you suggesting that not only should a little child make a decision to attack an armed shooter, but he should organize his classmates and launch an effective counterattack?

    They can do this every time it happens because there are no negative consequences, none.
    Except being killed immediately.

    If the person was going to shoot them they were going to shoot them.
    Andhow do you know that? How is the child going to know that?


    You berate the idea of fighting a fire, but forget the circumstances I gave you. If the choice is to stay in a room with a fire blocking the door, and doing nothing, or using the extinguisher, even if untrained, I will take the attempt at using the extinguisher.
    Yes, You will make that attempt. We are talking about 4th graders. Every schol should and does do exensive fire evactuation training. Leave the fire fighting to an adult.

    Just because some moron of an adult cannot push his laptop into a garbage can and carry it out of the building instead of discharging a fire extinguisher he doesn't know how to use, and didn't take the time to read the instructions on, is not the same.
    That is Exactly the Point. Sometimes an adult cannot make good decisions in times of emergency. You expect a child to perform at a higher level.


    Children's judgement (even as young as ten) isn't so bad that we have to tell them over and over to not do anything under any situation because they are too stupid to think and act. The whole purpose of the proposed training that started this thread was to provide training so that they don't have to rely solely upon their own individual judgement, but have some guidance and some training from adults they trust, to guide them if one of a few horrible circumstances develop.
    Yes, children's judgement is so bad that we need to continue teaching them through adolesence and young adulthood. We need to guide and nurture them.

    The problem with the proposed training is that it is irresponsible. Children should not be put in a position to even think of attacking an active shooter. This type of 'guidance' is misguided.

  13. #42
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    The problem with the proposed training is that it is irresponsible
    What is irresponsible is the fact that most school administrators are putting their personal prejudices about gun control into school policy and ensuring that ANY shooter that enter into a school is guaranteed success.

    Irresponsible is the fact that there are many teachers that have concealed weapons permits, that would be ready, willing and able to engage a shooter if they had the means to do so if they were allowed to do so.

    Irresponsible is the fact that they refuse to adjust to todays changing environment.

    Until the mamby pampy momma's boys actually man up and do what the Israelis did when they experienced a rash of school shootings, random school shootings WILL continue.

    When the Israelis got tired of their kids being targeted, then they allowed teachers to be armed. Guess what? The school shootings stopped.

    Until we do what is required, all the talk and discussion in the world isn't going to change a thing and our children will continue to be targets for any sicko that wants to make a name for himself.

    Anything less is a waste of time.
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  14. #43
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    What is irresponsible is the fact that most school administrators are putting their personal prejudices about gun control into school policy and ensuring that ANY shooter that enter into a school is guaranteed success.

    Until the mamby pampy momma's boys actually man up and do what the Israelis did when they experienced a rash of school shootings, random school shootings WILL continue.

    When the Israelis got tired of their kids being targeted, then they allowed teachers to be armed. Guess what? The school shootings stopped.
    I agree completely.

  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Is this a closet? Most rooms, particularly school rooms have multiple exits. I will not opine on the best course of action. However, expecting and training ten year old children to confront an active shooter, determining what strategy to employ, whether they should use their hand to hand skills to disarm the attacker or throw a Dr. Seuss book is nonsense.
    You have not been in a school room lately have you, especially elementary. Yes it is a large closet with one door and maybe a sealed window if they are lucky.

    That problem cannot be addressed by expecting children to fend for themselves. Especially if they a given bad advice.
    When adults have failed them who should fend for them?


    They could call 9/11, evecuate through a window, hide in a closet, or, yes, even submit. Children are not miniature adults.
    Yes they are miniature adults. Those miniature adults taught by people who think like you, will hide and cry and claw at the sealed windows while the man with the gun scoffs at your failure to deal with reality. Those taught by people like the suggestion in the thread will do something to turn the circumstances in their favor; in this instance and in others in their lives.

    Are you suggesting that not only should a little child make a decision to attack an armed shooter, but he should organize his classmates and launch an effective counterattack?
    No, remember we are talking about training them, not expecting them to come up with this idea under pressure, inspiring one another and then flawlessly executing the attack.

    Except being killed immediately.
    Explain how that is worse than being killed a few moments later.



    Andhow do you know that? How is the child going to know that?
    Let's say that is a safe assumption, that if they come in the room with a gun they have come to kill someone or everyone. If not I don't think the charging 10 year olds will enrage them to murder, just retreat.



    Yes, You will make that attempt. We are talking about 4th graders. Every schol should and does do exensive fire evactuation training. Leave the fire fighting to an adult.
    Good grief, these aren't pre-schoolers here. "Now Little Johnny, remember if you are caught in a burning room and their is a fire extinguisher and no adult to use it don't try and save yourself, just go as far away as possible from the fire and DIE like a good little boy."


    That is Exactly the Point. Sometimes an adult cannot make good decisions in times of emergency. You expect a child to perform at a higher level.
    You must work in a government office building, because you obviously spend your day surrounded by morons whom you believe cannot make good decisions and whose children cannot make good decisions. If not, find a new job quick because unless you do you will be drug down with them. Government service is the only position in which that kind of idiocy will prosper.

    Until we allow or require our school teachers and administrators to carry the means to defend our children from those who would target them, this kind of action is the only chance we have of some of our children making it if these circimstances, which we all agree are remote, occur.
    But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
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  16. #45
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    By the way. We already have an example of what happens when the people in the school do nothing. It is unfortunate that we actually have several examples. Self Defence, your plan has not worked so far, so I am up for another startegy.

    Belsan School Massacre

    Amish school shooting

    Columbine school massacre
    But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
    "Baa."
    LTC(RET) Dave Grossman

    Revolutionary War Veterans Association Shooter Qualification: Cook

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