Outstanding: Controversy Erupts Over School Proposal to Teach Kids to Fight Back...

This is a discussion on Outstanding: Controversy Erupts Over School Proposal to Teach Kids to Fight Back... within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; What a concept!! Controversy Erupts Over School Proposal to Teach Kids to Fight Back Against Gunmen A school security expert says a proposal to teach ...

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    VIP Member Array ExactlyMyPoint's Avatar
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    Outstanding: Controversy Erupts Over School Proposal to Teach Kids to Fight Back...

    What a concept!!

    Controversy Erupts Over School Proposal to Teach Kids to Fight Back Against Gunmen

    A school security expert says a proposal to teach children as young as 10 years old to fight back against a classroom gunman is "scary."

    The Georgetown Public Schools in Georgetown, Mass., are considering whether to teach kids to fend off a gunman with backpacks or textbooks as part of a proposal to revamp their "Code Blue" safety policy.

    "To put that expectation on young, emotional, scared, frightened children is really a slippery slope," says Kenneth Trump, the president of National School Safety and Security Services. "It has a high risk and higher probability of escalating a situation than it would to neutralize the situation."

    Those who support the idea say it may seem extreme, but it could save a child's life.

    Georgetown Police Chief James E. Mulligan told FOXNews.com the proposed technique was intended to be a "last ditch" thing to be used in cases where a gunman has been able to thwart police and get inside a classroom alone with students.

    The controversy began when the district's school resource officer, Derek Jones, proposed the training in a memo after hearing it had been used in schools in Florida.

    "[He] was starting the conversation with us to say, well, ĎDo we want the kids to sit there and literally have the gunman be able to shoot them one at a time? Or do we want to allow instincts to kick in and basically allow them to protect themselves against the threat?'" Carol Jacobs, the district superintendent, told FOXNews.com.

    "It might include using a book or hiding behind a backpack or something, some kind of shield."

    Jacobs said the proposal to teach kids in fifth grade and up how to ward off armed attackers in a worst-case scenario created some concern among administrators.

    "We had immediate discomfort with all of this because itís not the way weíve thought about it in the past, and also, we worry a little bit more about the liability of all of this," she said.

    Jones' memo was intended only for school officials updating the school safety policy in Georgetown, a coastal community north of Boston, but it was leaked to the media before the district's safety committee could even discuss it, leading to concern among parents.

    "A lot of kids come from unsafe places at home, and school is their only haven, you know, and for them to come into school and have to think about that stuff I think can be scary," parent Hope Carter told MyFOXBoston.com.

    Barbie Linares, who has three children in the district, including a 10-year-old, said she has confidence in how the school administration deals with proposals.

    "If it was going to be implemented, I would hope that it would be implemented in, say, fifth grade and above, or middle school and above," she told FOXNews.com. "I do think that it would be better off with the older kids."

    Trump said it makes more sense to train school staff to deal with a gunman.

    "Weíre asking them to make some quite serious judgments that even trained adults are challenged to make," he said. "I think thatís an unrealistic and highly risky expectation and burden to put on kids."

    Current policy, Mulligan said, is on par with districts across the country, allowing police to enter a school in lockdown and engage an attacker "to minimize the harm to children and staff in the school."

    Officials say the Georgetown community is safe. The only recent activity was an unfounded bomb threat six months ago that lead to a school evacuation.

    The safety committee plans to discuss the Code Blue proposals on Thursday.

    "The intention here is just to make sure that we are always on the cutting edge of what we need to do to keep our kids safe and obviously to learn from lessons of tragedies in other places," Jacobs said.
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    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Some still just don't get it:
    Current policy, Mulligan said, is on par with districts across the country, allowing police to enter a school in lockdown and engage an attacker "to minimize the harm to children and staff in the school."
    uh yeah...what about before the police get there? How many have to die on their knees before you feel better nitwit!
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    Senior Member Array mi2az's Avatar
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    Just allow the teachers carry guns concealed in the classroom.Having 10 year olds to attack using back packs against a gun. Are they nuts ??????
    "When the people fear the government you have tyranny...when the government fears the people you have liberty."

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    "To put that expectation on young, emotional, scared, frightened children is really a slippery slope," says Kenneth Trump, the president of National School Safety and Security Services. "It has a high risk and higher probability of escalating a situation than it would to neutralize the situation."
    "Now Johnny, you just sit there and let the nice man shoot you. Don't worry, when the police show up they will take yours and the rest of the body's to the morgue. Remember, we wouldn't want to do anything that might upset the man who is shooting your friends, that could get you expelled from school and just think how bad your mom and dad would feel about that!"

    Where do these so called experts store their brains and common sense? Allow teachers who have a carry permit to carry in school. Teach the kids to fight back. We all know by the time the police arrive it's already too late.
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    Senior Member Array Rob P.'s Avatar
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    When I was a kid my mother told me "you DO NOT yell or scream or make loud noises UNLESS someone is trying to hurt or kidnap you. If that's the case then you WILL yell, scream and make all the noise you can AND you WILL kick, bite, scratch and do anything else you need to do to stop them."

    To this day I have a hard time yelling or screaming but I still know how to kick, bite, scratch and all those other things. IMO telling kids it is OK to run around in the street screaming at the top of their lungs just to hear themselves but not fight to protect their lives is STUPID.

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    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    They had this very same debate down here in Texas on WOAI talk radio a couple of years ago. I called in to the station and gave them my opinion:

    You can get on your knees and beg for your life and maybe get spared, or die on your knees like a beggar; or you can fight for your life and die knowing that someone might have escaped because of your brave actions.

    Now that is a lot for a 10 year old to swallow, but thats what I teach my boys, because they are americans. Besides, people would be surprised at what a 10 year old can swallow nowadays....
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

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    Member Array jensen47770's Avatar
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    It's been a few years since I was in high school, but I remember plenty about the whole "fighting" issue. Schools teach kids not to fight from the very beginning, starting as early as Pre-School.

    A lot of kids take Karate when they are younger to develop self confidence and good work habits. I took about six years of Karate and learned a good amount. At school, if you fought for whatever reason you were suspended. It did not matter if you started the fight or finished it, it was your fault. In so doing, kids are conditioned not to fight.

    I am not suggesting that kids fight, violence generally doesn't solve problems, but if a kid starts a fight, the other kid should attempt to back off and defuse the situation as best as possible. My parents always told me that I should do whatever possible to keep from fighting, but if someone started a fight with me, I was expected to finish it. Kids should not be afraid of fighting, they should understand when to fight and how defend themselves when attacked.

    Defensive classes would be a great idea, I think teaching kids how to defend themselves would be very useful. If the bully knows the smaller kids know hoe to fight, that is some measure of deterrence right there. Obviously, a 10 year old is probably not going to fight off an armed gunman, but learning basic defense is a stepping stone to more advanced defensive knowledge. As school progresses, students should learn more. Students should be taught propper defensive techniques and have classes in dealing with assailants.
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    Member Array JusticeDun's Avatar
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    Yeah, I can see it now... While the kids are throwing pencils and books at the BG the teacher's in the fetal position under the desk.

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    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Food for thought: What would happen if everytime a bully, criminal, active shooter or terrorist attacked, the "victim" struck back with overwhelming force?

    Maybe I'm a dinosaur but my Dad always said that if I started a fight, I would get a royal butt kicking when I got home.

    But if someone attacked me, I should make sure that they NEVER wanted to try that again.

    Violence isn't always a bad thing!
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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed Paul G.
    Win lose, or draw...the attacker will know not to never come back for seconds.

    As to children of this age IMHO I'd rather my daughter fight and maybe survive, than cower under a desk and likely die.
    Whether or not schools teach kids to act and react with violence and force upon being aggressed against with same, my own kids within the four walls of my home will learn and be schooled on exactly this.

    School is not a substitute nor the rule book for parenting, again IMHO.

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    As to children of this age IMHO I'd rather my daughter fight and maybe survive, than cower under a desk and likely die.
    Whether or not schools teach kids to act and react with violence and force upon being aggressed against with same, my own kids within the four walls of my home will learn and be schooled on exactly this.


    I think that you ought to teach them to fight back. This victim mentality is killing us.

    I think that it is totally ridiculous to expell two kids for fighting. You suspend the kid that started it, not the other one too because he fought back.

    Look what happens in school shootings. The kids hit the floor and end up dying in the fetal postition, because they have been taught that resisting in wrong.

    Its a communist plot that seem to have taken over the schools. Dont believe it? Watch some of the posts here and see. Most will be OK with it, some of them will squall like mashed cats because that is what they have been taught to do.

    Some body comes in shooting, every kid there in eye distance ought to start throwing books, chairs, brooms, whatever they can get their hands on. At the very least, others could run away while the perp is ducking the onslaught.

    If we teach our kids to act like sheep, they will grow up acting and thinking like sheep.

    I think its about time to man up and teach them how to stand up.
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    Senior Member Array walvord's Avatar
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    At least they're talking about taking a different approach - that is a step in the right direction IMHO.
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    Senior Member Array ntkb's Avatar
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    The anti gun/anti violence experiment is over it has been a dismal failure! Time to arm the teachers and have them pass defensive course or they don’t get into class. If they are there for the kids, and I can’t be there to defend them, the teacher should be first line of defense. Everyone else has to multitask.

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    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntkb View Post
    The anti gun/anti violence experiment is over it has been a dismal failure! Time to arm the teachers and have them pass defensive course or they donít get into class. If they are there for the kids, and I canít be there to defend them, the teacher should be first line of defense. Everyone else has to multitask.
    Along those same lines...the "zero tolerance" approach is also a failure. Teachers and administrators know who is a dirt bag...and who is the "good kid". The kids who get caught up in the middle need benefit of doubt. Unfortunately, the ZT approach = zero judgment...and administrators do not know how to make decisions and defend them--like in the real world.

    My brother got into a fight in middle school. I happened to be a substitute teacher at his school. There was a punk kid who I had enough of, who I sent to the principal's office. Apparently, he had been threatening my brother with "If your brother kicks me out of class again, I'm coming after you". I had not heard this when the next day, I kicked the kid out.

    The punk jumped on my brother's back off the stairs and started beating him. My brother was a blue (?) or brown belt in TKD...and cleaned this kid's clock. That's when the whole story came out. Bottom line: the kid was a dirtbag with a history of disciplinary problems; my brother had never been in trouble. Both get suspended under the ZT rule.

    I weighed in with the principal and called "BS" (I wasn't part of the union as a sub, and I was entering active duty a couple of months later). I had nothing to lose and injected common sense. Punk started it, my brother finished it...everyone attested to this (BTW, I was not the one who broke up the fight). Because my brother broke the "no fighting rule", he had to have some punishment--In school suspension for 3 days, including the day of the fight. The other kid got 5 days out of school suspension.

    Why? He had a record of violence. But you wouldn't believe what it took to convince the principal that this was an appropriate course of action...and how the District policy was flawed.

    Kids need to learn that fighting back is OK...especially if your life is on the line.
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    I know for me ever since middle school regardless of where i sat i would work out several plans of attack for that particular classroom (most of them the same basic idea throw my carry book (yes i carried a decent sized book just for the purpose of throwing at someone) then closing the distance to start fighting him h2h) should someone try to enter the room and harm everyone in the room. I did this even though i was told that we were suppose to run and hide which did not sit well with me and i told my teachers that. Funny thing was they could never beat me in an argument about fighting back or hiding.

    I also knew that if i ever started a fight i would be in serious trouble but I did end a couple and i did not get any sort of real trouble for it. also some of my friends and i would regularly "fight" (without hurting each other) just for the fun of it.

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