I had to draw my gun in Orlando last week. - Page 2

I had to draw my gun in Orlando last week.

This is a discussion on I had to draw my gun in Orlando last week. within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; soflasmg....I'm glad it worked out well for you and the family. It's great that you and your wife are wired with one another with respects ...

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Thread: I had to draw my gun in Orlando last week.

  1. #16
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    soflasmg....I'm glad it worked out well for you and the family. It's great that you and your wife are wired with one another with respects to what to do in a stressful situation like a self defense scenario.
    USAF: Loving Our Obscene Amenities Since 1947


  2. #17
    Member Array soflasmg's Avatar
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    My wife and I discussed the whole scenario in depth last night, and what I did not realize is her gun was drawn as well, and she had put herself in a defensive position with our boy.

    She credits this to training. We both attended a 20 hour course with Chuck Taylor about 3 years ago and she felt controlled and confident until things had settled down.

    I've been through more training before and since then, which allowed the gun handling and possible implementation to be second nature. This allowed more attention to be given to managing the tactical situation.

    I cannot stress enough the value of training.

    Thanks to all who have posted on this thread for your encouragement.
    The Marshmallowist

  3. #18
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    A Question:


    If this person had not fled.
    If this person had simply been somebody passing through the parking lot.


    Would drawing your weapons have made you guilty of brandishing a firearm if the person had called police?

  4. #19
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    Unhappy Scary Possibilities....

    Quote Originally Posted by standles
    A Question:


    If this person had not fled.
    If this person had simply been somebody passing through the parking lot.


    Would drawing your weapons have made you guilty of brandishing a firearm if the person had called police?
    I think that is a very possible outcome to this situation. But I dunno. In Florida if the wind blows your cover garment open and some liberal girlie man sees it and says to a cop That man over there is wearing a gun and I'm frightened... you might very well find yourself on the sharp point of a brandishing beef. The cop will ask to see your official colors (badge) and if you ain't one of the brothers in blue (or brown as the case is here in South Florida) you might be in a peck o' trouble. CCW or not. That attitude is mostly restricted to this area of Florida. That's one good thing about police discretionary powers.
    Last edited by ExSoldier; January 18th, 2006 at 09:36 PM.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  5. #20
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    I think reporting possible BG's is a good idea. they can send a car and maybe pick him up. Atleast check out who it is. If you report , it might go essier on you if someone does report you for brandishing.

  6. #21
    Member Array soflasmg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by standles
    A Question:


    If this person had not fled.
    If this person had simply been somebody passing through the parking lot.


    Would drawing your weapons have made you guilty of brandishing a firearm if the person had called police?
    These are big ifs irrelevant to the situation described.

    You are muddying the waters of this thread.

    What if space hamsters flew out of his ass and started singing "Mammy"?
    The Marshmallowist

  7. #22
    Member Array standles's Avatar
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    While on the subject of space hamsters....

    Quote Originally Posted by soflasmg

    When we got within 30 yds of our car, my wife and I simultaneously noticed what could only be described as a "lurking guy" with his right hand in his jacket pocket.
    So there was a guy 30 yards away with his hand in his pocket. Cause for notice and altering your condition level but to consider him "lurking" at that point could have been just your cautious impression.

    Quote Originally Posted by soflasmg
    My wife and I made eye contact and she quickly moved my son to the other side of the car, putting the car between her and the bg. I then walked in the same direction, drawing my gun and turning to face the bg as I came around the back of my car, with the bg following.
    So you both noticed a "lurking guy". You both continued to force the situation with a child in tow. You both took defensive postures and drew weapons. A better response would have been to backoff and alert authorities. Not insert yourself into a possible confrontation with a "lurking" guy whom you didn't know whether was armed or had other lurking accomplices.


    Quote Originally Posted by soflasmg
    He then started to come around the back, then stopped, turned around and walked quickly away.
    You don't mention the distance at this point but from your choice of words it would seem that he was within a 1 to 1/2 cars lenght from you. Possibly you at the door and him coming around the back of the car. It also seems that now you and your family are all on the same side of the car with attention focused squarely on him. If a gun battle had errupted you would probably have prevailed. That distance is to close in my opinion. If in fact your family was all on the same side then I am glad it didn't go down. Stray bullets finding unintended targets. If you aboslutely had to force the issue I would have left family or had them retreat to safety and only inserted myself into the danger whether the others were armed or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by soflasmg
    My neighbor the fed says its a good thing the bad guy was a dumb ass and allowed me to dictate positioning.
    I would add that it was also good it didn't seem premeditated and was most likely an oportunistic event. Otherwise it could have gotten real bad real quick with some faulty (my opinion) decisions on your part contributing.


    Quote Originally Posted by soflasmg
    The conversation afterward with my wife centered on the following.

    1) I probably would have prevailed in a justifiable shooting had the goblin continued.


    2) Our lives would have been forever altered by the aftermath of police investigation, possible criminal and civil legal defense, shoulda coulda woulda guilt feelings, trauma for Jr., etc...

    3) The moral of the story to me is you are not paranoid if you either find a better parking spot, go somewhere else, or go home.
    Agreed on all counts.


    Now...

    I was not muddying the content of the thread. I asked a perfectly valid question. You seem to prop up your response with thinly veiled sarcastic remarks. ALMOST ANYBODY "lurker" or not would have fled the scene if they saw you and your wife staring them down with weapons drawn.

    If you want praise heaped on you for drawing your weapon then stick to talking to your Fed buddy and your close friends. Posting your account in an open forum opens it up to inspection. It is through this process we all learn. Hindsight is 20/20 and can help all alter response for the next time.

    As a CCW holder I feel I have an even higher responsibility to avoid issues such as you described if possible. I am not an LEO and I don't intend to put myself in positions where I could be forced to use deadly force. However, if I have no other recourse I am capable and willing.

    You noticed the lurker 30 yds away but still continued forward. Would you have done so if you had been unarmed? I think a better choice would have been to return to an area of realtive safety call the strip mall security/police and let them deal with it. Again this is 20/20 and none of us were in the position at the time of the incident. It is easy to armchair the event but from what you described it is my opinion.

    FWIW.. I have been in a similar incident and I simply walked back into the coffee shop, had another cup of coffee until the vagrant moved on. I felt no need to force the problem.

    On another occasion I saw a carload of young males parked in the lot of a Waffle House ~2am. They did not come in and they sat in the lot for over 40 minutes car running facing the door and looking at the business. I informed the manager, They called the cops, I had a free breakfast, and the cops moved them along. I think they were waiting for it to clear out so they could rob the place. I stayed inside. If they had entered I would have defended myself but at that point it would have been unavoidable.


    Hope I am back on topic.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by soflasmg
    These are big ifs irrelevant to the situation described.

    You are muddying the waters of this thread.
    IMHO, he asked the questions in a collegial manner, without making accusations, in a genuine effort to further discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by soflasmg
    What if space hamsters flew out of his ass and started singing "Mammy"?
    Well, if that happened, I (probably among others) would prefer not knowing about it....

    Taking the questions in the spirit of inquiry, here is what I was able to come up with. Much of this is based on FLORIDA FIREARMS Law, Use & Ownership by Jon H. Gutmacher. I highly recommend this book, for its no-nonsense examination of Florida's laws from a pro-gun standpoint. Also, IANAL, so take it for what it worth.

    That said, brandishing falls under FS 790.10:
    790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.--If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
    Unfortunately, the statute is pretty muddy here - Gutmacher discusses the problems at length on pp. 110 of the book. IMHO, there are a couple questions here, but since you had an articulable fear of being accosted in some manner, the "in necessary self-defense" clause would come into play.

    Of course, from the original post there is no clear indication that the lurker ever actually saw the gun. If he didn't see it, there was no "display".

    One place, IMHO, where you did not make the right call was not reporting the incident to the police. If we assume for the sake of argument that the "lurker" was in fact devoid of malicious purpose, then getting a call in to the police first makes you seem more reasonable. If the lurker had been innocent and called the police, then someone would have asked "if you were threatened, why didn't you call the police?". Just my thoughts, take them for what they are worth.

    Of course, in the end, there was a good outcome. I am glad that we are discussing this issue, and not something much more serious.

    At the end of the day, you and yours went home safe and that is the only score that matters.

    Matt

  9. #24
    Member Array soflasmg's Avatar
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    I was not trying to veil my sarcasm.

    The questions are proper, but not in the context of this conversation.

    A new thread would be an appropriate context.

    Regarding pats on the back, I could count on one or two fingers the people on this forum who know my identity, with the exception of the mods who probably don't know or care, but could figure it out by isp etc... .

    Pats on the head of my avatar are welcome however.

    My concern is that if enough questions are raised about this situation, a casual reader, or someone new to defensive issues may become overly timid and while waiting to see if the bg is going to produce a cookie or a gun get killed.

    You mentioned distance. 30 yards is 30 to 40 steps.

    1) Fact registers I see a guy. (2-3 steps transpire)

    2) I decide he is a "lurking" guy with hand in one pocket, looking shifty, and eyballing the area and my family(3-5 more steps transpire)

    3) Did I check behind me for his friends? ( 3-5 more steps transpire to not allow possible "herding" movement by to begin)

    4) Decision made that to get the engine block between the guy I do see and give me a clear view for more possible "lurking guys" and my family is the safest and most expedient action

    I will excercise my right to walk to my car and drive my family home, and will not turn my back on an a-hole intending to rob or kill me to run away like a little school girl shrieking into the night.

    Others are welcome to chose otherwise.

    As I said in the beginning of the thread the purpose of posting this experience was to emphasize the absolute necessity of getting proper training. Proper training makes the weapon one tool that has been mastered and allowed me to use the tool between my ears to quickly evaluate a safe course of action, which the outcome shows to have been safe.

    As I indicated, proper training allowed me to go home without firing my weapon and putting my family in the safest position, which is my goal in any situation.

    I also maintain that singing space hamsters would have been an interesting sidebar to the situation.
    The Marshmallowist

  10. #25
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    What if space hamsters flew out of his ass and started singing "Mammy"?
    Standles asked a perfectly legitimate question. The space hamsters and the attitude problem can be left at the door before you enter Bumper's house again.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by soflasmg
    The questions are proper, but not in the context of this conversation.

    A new thread would be an appropriate context.
    I disagree. I am always glad to see members willing to post their own experiences on the website. It helps all of us gain a background from which to draw if we ever find ourselves in a similar situation. You must expect that other members are going to dissect your actions in such a situation, however, and post comments that, hopefully, will also help us all. You are a big enough person to post the scenario, you have to be big enough to accept the constructive criticism. Standles' questions were legitimate and absolutely in the proper context of the post. I expect many of us were asking ourselves the same questions as we read through the thread. A new thread would have rendered the questions useless. It is best to simply answer the questions with a clarification in a non-sarcastic manner so we all better understand what your situation was. For the record I think you did pretty well in the scenario and it is good to see spouses working as a team when faced with this situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by soflasmg
    I also maintain that singing space hamsters would have been an interesting sidebar to the situation.
    It may have been interesting, but I would really rather keep such comments out of the forums. It adds nothing to the conversation....
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

  12. #27
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    In this situation as it's described, granted none of us were there and don't know the situation first hand, I would not have drawn my weapon. The suspect posed no immediate threat, wandering around a parking lot is not uncommon, and alot of people keep their hands in their pocket. So what if it was an honest homeless man looking for some change? What are you going to do when he approaches you, stick your gun in his face? position your weapon at low ready? As far as you know, the man was not armed and not trying to start a conversation with you. So what happens if he approaches you, you stick your gun in his face and he says "whatcha gonna do shoot me?" kind makes you look like an ass because you cant shoot the guy, so you have to reholster and walk away with you tail between your legs.

    I commend you on your awareness, but if you really thought he was a threat, you should have turned around and headed back to the restaurant. Check your 6, make sure he's not following you, but head back to the restaurant.

    A right to carry is not a right to draw

  13. #28
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    Otis please explain to me what is non-threatening about a guy standing behind a building with one hand in his pocket and following me with one hand in his pocket and glancing around as I made several direction changes.

    Regarding "looking like an ass" as you mention, that does not concern me in the least, nor does a "walk away with my tail between my legs" if I get to go home safe and sound.

    No gun was seen by the possibly upstanding citizen either.
    The Marshmallowist

  14. #29
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    I'm with Soflasmg(how do you pronounce that?!?) on this one... I especially agree with his statement:

    "I will excercise my right to walk to my car and drive my family home, and will not turn my back on an a-hole intending to rob or kill me..."

    ..and I must respectfully but vigorously DISAGREE with those to suggest that he should have "retreated". It can also be said that he WAS 'retreating' by attempting to gain acces to his vehicle to leave the potential 'danger area'. Why should he be chastised for choosing to exercise his inherent Right to return to his lawfully owned vehicle instead of letting the turds ditate what we can and can't do in our daily lives? He evaluated a probable threat(his wife had the same defensive reaction), and his and his wife' training paid off. They both acted as Sheepdogs and bloodlessly protected their 'lamb' that is to be commended.

    Regarding "What if...?" questions... I'll pass on a bit of wisdom that was passed on to me during Boot Camp. One of the Weapons Training Battalion Drill Instructor's standard response was

    "What if...?!? What if grasshoppers had machineguns? Birds wouldn't (mess) with 'em! Don't waste time asking 'What if...?' questions!" ....It works fer me...!


    While I fully agree that discretion is sometimes the better part of valor, the goods guys should not have to retreat from each and every potential threat while peaceably going about our lives.
    "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it."
    - Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC

  15. #30
    Senior Member Array madmike's Avatar
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    "What if" questions are not a waste of time.

    When someone chooses to post about something that did happen to them, the action will and should be disected. Everyone, including the original poster can learn from that exchange.

    Otherwise, posting an "It happened to me" story is nothing more than bragging. This thread didn't seem to fit into that catagory.

    It can be hard to put into words exactly why someone looks suspicious or threatening to you. Since the "potential BG" had been described as "lurking," I did get the impression that there was something that didn't look right about him. Learning how to convey your impression of a potential thread would be a useful skill, should it come down to a court case.

    So, what if he turned out to be someone not up to anything bad, just being there in the parking lot? It sounded to me like he (the possible BG) didn't see a weapon, no accusitory words were exchanged, no shots fired, so I don't see any wrong action taken.

    I think its a "plus" that soflasmg's and his wife's training (and their instincts,) gave them more than one course of action to take. Not all teach that there can be a pause between "draw" and "fire."

    I don't like the notion that the BG's dictate our actions, we should be able to live our lives at our own direction. But when you do carry a gun, with it comes a responsibility to avoid having to use it, whenever possible.

    Just my dos centavo's worth. . .

    mm
    Political Correctness has now "evolved" into Political Cowardice.

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