BAD: 3 Men Gang-Rape Woman - Richmond, CA - Page 2

BAD: 3 Men Gang-Rape Woman - Richmond, CA

This is a discussion on BAD: 3 Men Gang-Rape Woman - Richmond, CA within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; CPTMO, Hate Crime status doesn't come about because a person called another person a name. It's by way of the victim being victimized specifically for ...

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Thread: BAD: 3 Men Gang-Rape Woman - Richmond, CA

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    CPTMO,

    Hate Crime status doesn't come about because a person called another person a name.
    It's by way of the victim being victimized specifically for specific reason of bias.

    Defining a Hate Crime

    A hate crime is a traditional offense like murder, arson, or vandalism with an added element of bias.

    For the purposes of collecting statistics, Congress has defined a hate crime as a "criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender's bias against a race, religion, disability, ethnic origin or sexual orientation."

    Hate itself is not a crime—and the FBI is mindful of protecting freedom of speech and other civil liberties.
    For more info see - Federal Bureau of Investigation - Civil Rights - Hate Crime

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing


  2. #17
    Member Array socal2310's Avatar
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    The very idea of a "hate crime" is a clear violation of every liberal's favorite constitutional amendment. I have heard of "crimes of passion" but not a "love crime". If anything, people who commit violent acts in a detached manner are scarier to me.

    Ryan

  3. #18
    Member Array CPTMO's Avatar
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    Janq I was being facetious. I do, however, have a bias against trash and scumbags.

    My point is that it doesn't matter what caused a person to commit a crime against another person. What matters is that a crime was committed and should be punished with the same fervor as any other same crime. The only way to stop this kind of animalistic behavior by scumbags is for the law to be so tough that they fear breaking it. I want to see every criminal punished, so that others do not commit the same crimes. When the law is weak then crime gets out of control.

    For instance, I live in North Mississippi and work in Memphis, TN. Burglary and vandalism gets a slap on the wrist in Memphis, TN. School crimes are out of control. They break in and tear up schools and vandalize them to the tune of thousands of dollars of damage. If caught they are out on the street again on probation at worst. They don't dare, however, drive 10 minutes south of the city into Mississippi and commit the same crimes. B&E in Mississippi has mandatory jail time (one of the reasons I live in MS instead of TN). The laws should be tough on everyone to stop crime.

    The woman in this story was raped and whether it was a "hate crime" or not does not matter. We need to stop using that term and all criminals should get the maximum penalty.

    Maybe we can start calling crimes a "Crime Against Humanity"

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Wow. She was raped in her car and then taken into her home. And nobody saw/cared. Sad.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    "The crimes that were committed at face value were shocking," Lt. Mark Gagan said. "But when it was revealed there was also a hate crime enhancement, it really prompted outcry."
    Don't just blame the media for turning it into a gay/lesbian thing. The police Lt. said "it really prompted outcry". That was AFTER it was revealed to be a "hate crime".

    So what you have is that the core of the community was basically fine with the fact that some woman was violated, but raised double hockey-sticks when they found out she was gay.

    ***? That's a clear sign that our society is fouled up top to bottom and bottom to top.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    CPTMO I am going to have to disagree with you. It is very important what the persons motivation was when they commit a crime. Especially when they make a point of further victimizing the person by letting them know that they were specifically targeted because of their skin color, lifestyle, religion what have you.
    It is one thing to steal a loaf of bread because your kids are hungry. It is something different to steal a loaf of bread simply because you don't think the other person deserves it because they are (insert target group here).
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    CPTMO I am going to have to disagree with you. It is very important what the persons motivation was when they commit a crime. Especially when they make a point of further victimizing the person by letting them know that they were specifically targeted because of their skin color, lifestyle, religion what have you.
    It is one thing to steal a loaf of bread because your kids are hungry. It is something different to steal a loaf of bread simply because you don't think the other person deserves it because they are (insert target group here).
    You are comparing apples to oranges. Sure, if someone steals bread because they are hungry, that's way different from stealing a leather jacket just because you want it.

    But raping someone??? IT DOESN'T MATTER WHY!!!!

    If my wife or daughter (both white) were raped by a white man, we aren't going to feel better about it just because we know that it wasn't a hate crime. Should their attacker be punished less than if he of a different skin color??

    The act of rape isn't made more acceptable just because it wasn't classified as a hate crime.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    PaulG, I don't think you understood the point I was trying to make. To use your leather jacket in the analogy, I am not stealing your jacket because I want it. I am stealing your jacket for no other reason than I don't want you to have it because you are a (insert target group here). My theft is not about my gain, it is soley about depriving you of something you don't deserve because you are (insert target group here). It is about the criminal act being committed for no other purpose than making you a victim because of who you are.

    I am not saying this rape should automatically be classified as a hate crime because the victim is a lesbian. But it is alleged that during the rape they taunted her about it. This indicates to me that they knew she is a lesbian and targeted her specifically because she is a lesbian. That if she was not a lesbian this never would have occurred. If that is the case I have no problem with these guys getting another ten years.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array stormbringerr's Avatar
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    to me rapest are in the same group as child molesters.
    i wonder what the ancient Spartans would have done to them.
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    Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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  10. #25
    Senior Member Array lance22's Avatar
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    The idea that a peace-loving lesbian was minding her own business, was attacked and gang-raped is an outrage.
    The media just doesn't "get it". They think if you are peace loving and mind your own business that criminals won't bother you? Talk about having your head in the sand!

  11. #26
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    PaulG, I don't think you understood the point I was trying to make. To use your leather jacket in the analogy, I am not stealing your jacket because I want it. I am stealing your jacket for no other reason than I don't want you to have it because you are a (insert target group here). My theft is not about my gain, it is soley about depriving you of something you don't deserve because you are (insert target group here). It is about the criminal act being committed for no other purpose than making you a victim because of who you are.

    I am not saying this rape should automatically be classified as a hate crime because the victim is a lesbian. But it is alleged that during the rape they taunted her about it. This indicates to me that they knew she is a lesbian and targeted her specifically because she is a lesbian. That if she was not a lesbian this never would have occurred. If that is the case I have no problem with these guys getting another ten years.
    Actually, I did understand your meaning. But let's turn it around so you can see my point.

    Let's assume that my wife or daughter were raped and it was determined that it was not a hate crime.

    Based on what you have said, this scumbag would get a lesser sentence.

    So, the bottom line is that if a black guy rapes a white woman its a terrible thing and he should be hung. But if the black guy rapes a black woman, it must not be so bad because we don't sentence him to as long in jail. That ain't right!!!
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  12. #27
    Member Array socal2310's Avatar
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    It is about the criminal act being committed for no other purpose than making you a victim because of who you are.
    mcp1810,

    The law already distinguishes between those who have criminal intent and those who do not (ignorance may not be an excuse, but it is a mitigating circumstance - look up the legal concept of mens rea).

    My problem with hate crimes is based on three factors:

    First, it affords certain groups extra protections under the law that others don't enjoy: with the exception of minority on minority violence, hate crimes are a one way street. If you are a WASP, your attackers almost certainly will NOT be prosecuted for a hate crime even if they are making racist statements.

    Second, you can't prove what anyone was thinking at the time. Rapists and murderers commonly taunt their victims, whether or not the person was targeted for that reason. These guys happened to know this woman was a lesbian. Would this crime be any less heinous if they had been ignorant of the fact?

    Finally, the concept of a "hate crime" is legally problematic. I can see the doctrine playing merry hell with premeditation - required for capital murder convictions in many states.

    Ryan

  13. #28
    Member Array Slabsides45's Avatar
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    I also have a problem with labeling anything a "hate crime." If you set out with intent to murder, there's a penalty for it. It's worse than the one for losing your temper and killing in the heat of the moment, which is worse than negligence that results in someones death. There are tiers already established in the legal system without adding the redundant layer of "hate crimes" to the mix. Any crime committed at that level draws that level of penalty, and it doesn't matter WHY you did it (except to establish which level of penalty is handed down).

    So, you knew she was lesbian and set out to teach her a lesson? Okay, that's premeditated, and gets the grand slam penalty, which should be worse than the 18 year old who feels up his 17 year old girlfriend and she presses charges after having time to think about it when they break up. But should it be worse than someone looking at my daughter, going into the dollar store for duct tape and rope, and following her home? Not on your life, and at some core level, I believe we all know that.

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    I understand where you are coming from guys. Depending on the specific wording of the laws in your jurisdictions your points may very well be valid.

    PaulG I am operating under the assumption that the "hate crime" is a seperate charge just as using a handgun in the commission of a felony is in certain jurisdictions. Should a rapist serve less time if he only uses a knife?

    Socal2310, mens rea is not relevant to my point because nowhere do I question if the person knows the act is illegal. I am talking about someone knowingly committing an illegal act against another for no other purpose than to inflict pain/injury/death/loss on a person for no reason other than who they are.
    The criteria for charging hate crimes of course varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction but in many cases the decision can not be made until the offender or witnesses are interviewed. In some jurisdictions there are no specified protected classes that the law applies to. If your prosecutor wont pursue hate crime charges against minority offenders who have made blatantly incriminating statements, perhaps you need to look for new prosecutors as they are not seeking to provide equal protection under the law.
    As far as knowing what they were thinking, if they made incriminating statements during the interview, like when asked why they picked her, that is adequate. As far as if the crime would have been less heinous, no it wouldn't have been. But, the concept here is that if they had been ignorant of the fact the crime would never have taken place.

    And how is it legally problematic? Premeditation is a distinct issue. If you have three guys sitting around drinking beer and talking about going out and finding some random (insert group here) and killing them, you have your premeditation and the requisite specific intent to demonstrate it as a hate crime. If they do not specify who they are going to target you still have your premeditation, but proving it a hate crime may not be possible.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  15. #30
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    PaulG I am operating under the assumption that the "hate crime" is a seperate charge just as using a handgun in the commission of a felony is in certain jurisdictions. Should a rapist serve less time if he only uses a knife?
    Again. . turn it around. Should a rapist serve more time because he used a gun. My view Absolutely not.

    A loved one is raped. I could care less if he used a knife, gun, bic pen, or foul language. Or if he did it because she was white, wore a red sweater or whatever. Bottom line: A loved one is raped.

    Actually, since I believe a rapist should get the death penalty, to me it is a moot issue unless ofcourse we can figure out how to kill the guy twice.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

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