Houston Shooting? Doesn't look good...

Houston Shooting? Doesn't look good...

This is a discussion on Houston Shooting? Doesn't look good... within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; This is another one that's not looking good for the LEO's involved. Son of famed baseballer shot in driveway by cop - CNN.com Granted the ...

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Thread: Houston Shooting? Doesn't look good...

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Unhappy Houston Shooting? Doesn't look good...

    This is another one that's not looking good for the LEO's involved. Son of famed baseballer shot in driveway by cop - CNN.com

    Granted the mother's probable hysterics didn't help any. I suspect the mother being pushed back is what prompted the guy that got shot to try to get up from the ground. Either way, they've already confirmed the vehicle was HIS, not stolen, and he was on his own property minding his own business. Not looking good.

    At least Houston isn't rioting yet like Oakland is.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    I was just reading about this.

    Its hard to tell from the two articles I've read but the impression that I get is that the Officers ended up with Ma & Pa on one side and the "suspects" on the other. Bad things tend to happen when Officers get flanked in a tense situation.

    I'm holding off on formulating an opinion on this one for now...
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

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    If the article is correct (and considering the media, that's a big assumption), this doesn't look good. Vehicle wrongly identified as stolen, Mother pushed, and unarmed kid on the ground shot. Not good.

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    "Bellaire Police officials are no longer talking publicly about the case. The department's assistant chief says they're investigating how the officers on the scene mistakenly determined that the SUV Tolan and his cousin were driving had been stolen."

    They aren't talkin' 'cause they are "fixin" to come up with a good story. Takes time to get the lies lined up, especially the ones about the vehicle being stolen.

    What you have here is officers saw two black guys in an upscale white neighborhood. They figured these guys just had to be bad, and approached with guns drawn---shoved the parents and fired on young men when they attempted to protest the assault.

    Brilliant :-

    Understandable in some ways, but pathetic nonetheless.

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    "Bellaire Police officials are no longer talking publicly about the case. The department's assistant chief says they're investigating how the officers on the scene mistakenly determined that the SUV Tolan and his cousin were driving had been stolen."

    They aren't talkin' 'cause they are "fixin" to come up with a good story. Takes time to get the lies lined up, especially the ones about the vehicle being stolen.

    What you have here is officers saw two black guys in an upscale white neighborhood. They figured these guys just had to be bad, and approached with guns drawn---shoved the parents and fired on young men when they attempted to protest the assault.

    Brilliant :-

    Understandable in some ways, but pathetic nonetheless.
    Now you're leaping to conclusions about police officers leaping to conclusions... or am I leaping to a conclusion about you leaping to a conclusion?

    Whatever it is I think it'll get sorted out before long. This type of thing won't be easy to bury.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  6. #6
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    "Bellaire Police officials are no longer talking publicly about the case. The department's assistant chief says they're investigating how the officers on the scene mistakenly determined that the SUV Tolan and his cousin were driving had been stolen."

    They aren't talkin' 'cause they are "fixin" to come up with a good story. Takes time to get the lies lined up, especially the ones about the vehicle being stolen.
    Or, perhaps they are actually investigating to see what happened. No, that can't be it, because cops always lie for each other, cover for each other, and do their best to hide the truth. Border Patrol, Houston Cops, New Orelans cops, South Carolina Troopers, FBI...everybody. Cops are cops and cops are dirty.

    Hard to imagine how this could turn out to be a good shoot. Anything is possible, and there are a lot of details that are yet to be known, but it certainly does not look good. I'll be curious to see how long they wait before brining in the Rangers or the FBI to look at it. Maybe a "panic shot"? If his gun was already drawn, he could have ended up grappling with Mom & Dad and squeezed off a round with sympathetic pressure. Any way you look at it, it does not look good. Methinks the Officer in question should start seeking an excellent criminal defense attorney.
    Gonzo
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    On the surface does not look good for the officer.

    Watching the video of the family lawyer I was wondering one thing. Where was Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton?

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    Perhaps

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatGonzo View Post
    Or, perhaps they are actually investigating to see what happened. No, that can't be it, because cops always lie for each other, cover for each other, and do their best to hide the truth.
    Perhaps.

    Meanwhile, you can bet the city attorney is working overtime trying to figure out how Belaire will escape the liability for this one. It won't be easy.

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    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Meanwhile, you can bet the city attorney is working overtime trying to figure out how Belaire will escape the liability for this one. It won't be easy.
    Sir, I agree with you 100% on that!
    Gonzo
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    What is "sympathetic pressure?"

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatGonzo View Post
    Maybe a "panic shot"? If his gun was already drawn, he could have ended up grappling with Mom & Dad and squeezed off a round with sympathetic pressure.
    Gonzo
    Sympathin--- a term for adrenalin.

    Yeah, I can believe they fired due to an adrenaline rush. It doesn't sound as nice as "under sympathetic pressure" though. What excuse maker came up with that nice sounding terminology for panic?

    Maybe they thought the folks emerging from the house didn't belong there and were part of a gang of blacks robbing an upscale house? Didn't realize it was mom and dad?

    Whatever the story, what is, is. The kid had a right to be where he was. He had done nothing wrong. A car wasn't stolen. No weapons produced or present. But somehow he wound up in the hospital with a bullet in his liver.

    I know, it was an act of G-d.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The kid had a right to be where he was. He had done nothing wrong. A car wasn't stolen. No weapons produced or present. But somehow he wound up in the hospital with a bullet in his liver.
    Again, I agree with you 100%.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I know, it was an act of G-d.
    I'm not sure why you feel the need to be sarcastic. But, Ok...


    "Sympathetic pressure" has nothing to do with emotion. It is physiolgical. It is one of the main reasons why it is extremely important to keep your finger off the trigger. If you are holding something in your right hand and you unexpectedly squeeze very hard with your left hand, there is a natural tendency for your right hand to squeeze as well. It is the cause of a lot of negligent discharges. If you are running with a drawn weapon and your finger on the trigger and you fall, you might reach with your weak hand to grab something to hold on to. When you grab and squeeze with your weak hand...BANG...you squeeze with your right hand also.

    Hopyard, not every cop is dirty and not everything is about an excuse. If that is what happened (and it is only one of several theories I supposed), it does not excuse the Officer. It does not make it "OK". It would mean he acted improperly, keeping his finger on the trigger when he did not intend to shoot something (a pretty major safety rule when it comes to firearms). And it would mean his actions resulted in the death of an innocent person. Period. No excuse, just the reason behind it.

    Also known as:
    - Involuntary contraction
    - Postural Disturbance
    - Startle Effect
    - Interlimb Interaction

    It won't happen if you keep your finger of the trigger until you are ready and intend to fire at a target.


    I find it very interesting that there are some LEO members on the board who assume every single questionable LEO shooting is justifiable and other members who assume that every single questionable LEO shooting is part of a cover-up by dirty, trigger happy cops. I would imagine that the vast majority of members fall somewhere in the much more reasonable middle.
    Gonzo
    Last edited by TheGreatGonzo; January 8th, 2009 at 05:59 PM. Reason: Corrected some horrible grammer and clarified a point...
    "Skin that smokewagon!".

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    Gonzo-- thanks for explaining "sympathetic pressure."

    And I agree with you on all points you have stated in this thread.

    I've repeatedly stated in one post or another that not all bad stuff that happens is criminal or should be treated as criminal--even if technically it is.

    In this instance we are discussing, bad stuff happened. I am not saying that there was any bad intent or criminal intent from the git go. On the contrary, it is very sad that under the circumstances these officers were operating, they were darned if they ignored these young men who appeared to be out of place, and darned if they checked on them and bad stuff happened.

    It is the management and the city attorneys, who I figure are busy cooking a story. I don't think the officers involved were motivated by malice with regard to race so much as the sight of something unusual in that neighborhood. However, that something unusual was race. And they did get rather carried away and do great harm; assault on the mom, assault with a deadly weapon on the young man.

    I'm not accusing them of premeditated attempted murder, not suggesting a hate crime, and I actually think this whole situation should be handled through civil litigation and not the criminal justice system.

    When I wrote earlier I was only trying to say that this societal view about people who look out of place is very sad. And if fully explains why things went wild.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Hopyard,
    I think your above post says it all. Very well stated and I think we probably agree on a lot more points than we would disagree on.
    Gonzo
    PS - City administrators are attorneys and politicians. So, whatever they are cooking up...I feel pretty safe to say it is devious and underhanded.
    "Skin that smokewagon!".

  14. #14
    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatGonzo View Post
    PS - City administrators are attorneys and politicians. So, whatever they are cooking up...I feel pretty safe to say it is devious and underhanded.
    Now, let me get this straight. Are you saying that if there is an attorney involved, then what is happening is going to be devious and underhanded?

    Painting with a bit of a broad brush here aren't we?
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    Now, let me get this straight. Are you saying that if there is an attorney involved, then what is happening is going to be devious and underhanded?

    Painting with a bit of a broad brush here aren't we?
    Yes, but it was in good humor. I come from a family of attorneys. And they always stiff me at Christmas.
    Gonzo
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