Bad: Shooting Left Sergeant Shaken. New details emerge on training accident. (NH)

This is a discussion on Bad: Shooting Left Sergeant Shaken. New details emerge on training accident. (NH) within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by archer51 Here is where the double standard comes in. If Joe Ordinary was in the building without permission he would be prosecuted ...

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 25 of 25

Thread: Bad: Shooting Left Sergeant Shaken. New details emerge on training accident. (NH)

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array XD in SC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    660
    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    Here is where the double standard comes in. If Joe Ordinary was in the building without permission he would be prosecuted for it. If not by the bank then by the construction company. Having worked in the construction environment for many years I can tell you for a fact it is a dangerous place to work. Now add darkness to that environment and you double the danger.



    Did he notify the construction company that they had left the door unlocked and needed to make sure the site was secure when they left? The construction company would be liable if someone entered the site and was injured. If he did not notify the construction company of the building being left unsecured and someone entered and was injured he left himself and the department open for a lawsuit as well.
    Joe Ordinary would have been trespassing. LE isn't.

    Happens more often than you may realize. LEO working extra patrols/proactive patrols, and find door unlocked, or walk through an unfinished building to check things out. There may not be any way to contact the owner/const. company at the time. I know it happens here alot. If it's not posted, or if someone does not answer the phone, then what can you do.

    As far as your 2nd comment about the LE liable for something after they left.... probably not as long as they noted/logged it in.

    Just because I shake a door knob and leave, doesn't make me responsible for what happens later.

    We have businesses that open up, and never tell the dispatch center who to contact in case of an emergency. Do you think they will automatically know? Most people don't even think about it. Guess what LE has to do if someone breaks into a business here and we have no contact info.... yep we get to sit there all night. Great, that leaves a whole area of the city without a patrol unit!

    BTW, have any of you contacted your local LE/Fire/EMS dispatch centers to tell them how to get in touch with someone if something happened while you were away? How many of you don't have landlines? Do you think they will 'just know' your cell phone numbers?
    Sean
    XD 9SC | XD 45ACP Service | XD 45ACP Compact |Borealis
    "You may know where you are. God may know where you are. If you don't tell your dispatcher where you are, you'd better be on speaking terms with God!"

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #17
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,597
    I like the overall results here. No one seriously hurt. No one prosecuted. No one needlessly turned into a criminal.

    I have some concerns about the use of an unlocked building without permission, and it does strike me as trespassing, but since the bank/bldg owner didn't care, I have no problem with letting it go.

    I think the senior officer here did have a right to enter and take a look around, even an obligation to do so, but that is where his prerogative ended-- going on an training game was wrong. That merits exactly three verbal lashes from the Chief's tongue and the profuse apology of all involved. The accidental shooting was exactly that, accidental, and nothing more needs to be done.

    I would like to see the same sort of common sense resolution applied if this were a bunch of men practicing in a place where they were allowed to be, and an accident happened. e.g. at an IDPA mock up of a bank. (There would be no excuse whatsoever for non-le to be in the bank, so sure us regular folk would be treated differently in the same situation.)

  4. #18
    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Tallahassee, FL
    Posts
    1,831
    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    Don't agree...doubt a "bunch of regular guys" would be using a bank to practice tactics...for what purpose??

    He was on the SWAT team...and attempting to impart some of his knowledge on the younger newbies. I am betting it was well known and condoned by the higher ups...kinda hard to keep that a secret.

    He didn't try to cover it up...which has been seen many times by many other incidences.

    He took complete responsibility...and accountability.

    Fortunately...the vest worked.

    No double standard in my eyes...

    Rick
    I bet you are a cop?

    If he is on the SWAT team why not use the SWAT training facilities? If they dont have one how about getting one built instead of storm trooping private property? Regardless of his intentions, this was negligence and should not have happened.
    Civilians have every right to good training and many get better training than law enforcement. It is a double standard as stated before.

    As for covering it up, he really couldnt. He has a weapon discharge, that has to be reported, they had damaged equipment (the vest) that likely had to be reported and there was a wounded officer even if minor. Would have been difficult to cover this up.
    I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry.
    - Barack Obama Chicago Tribune, April 27, 2004

  5. #19
    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    1,681
    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD View Post
    I bet you are a cop?

    If he is on the SWAT team why not use the SWAT training facilities? If they dont have one how about getting one built instead of storm trooping private property? Regardless of his intentions, this was negligence and should not have happened.
    Civilians have every right to good training and many get better training than law enforcement. It is a double standard as stated before.

    As for covering it up, he really couldnt. He has a weapon discharge, that has to be reported, they had damaged equipment (the vest) that likely had to be reported and there was a wounded officer even if minor. Would have been difficult to cover this up.
    Nope...not even close. Negligence or an accident...fine line for sure.

    Reported??...you are speculating.

    Still don't see the double standard...civilian vs LEO. If it had happened on a tactical range...would it then not be a double standard? Lost in your logic...as your only argument is where it occured, not that it occured. The where has been explained...and the reason why (albeit flawed...but the motivation and intentions true)..

    Rick

  6. #20
    VIP Member
    Array archer51's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    21,183
    Quote Originally Posted by XD in SC View Post
    Joe Ordinary would have been trespassing. LE isn't.

    Happens more often than you may realize. LEO working extra patrols/proactive patrols, and find door unlocked, or walk through an unfinished building to check things out. There may not be any way to contact the owner/const. company at the time. I know it happens here alot. If it's not posted, or if someone does not answer the phone, then what can you do.

    As far as your 2nd comment about the LE liable for something after they left.... probably not as long as they noted/logged it in.

    Just because I shake a door knob and leave, doesn't make me responsible for what happens later.

    We have businesses that open up, and never tell the dispatch center who to contact in case of an emergency. Do you think they will automatically know? Most people don't even think about it. Guess what LE has to do if someone breaks into a business here and we have no contact info.... yep we get to sit there all night. Great, that leaves a whole area of the city without a patrol unit!

    BTW, have any of you contacted your local LE/Fire/EMS dispatch centers to tell them how to get in touch with someone if something happened while you were away? How many of you don't have landlines? Do you think they will 'just know' your cell phone numbers?
    Have to disagree, they did trespass, not the first night, but when they wenty back for training. They went back to conduct training on someone else property the next night. They could have notified the building owner/construction company the next day. Just because a building is unsecured does not give the the authority to use it for their own purposed.

    I don't know of any major construction company that doesn't put up their company sign at the start of a project and leave it up until time to turn the building over to the owner. Their company sign have the phone number on it and usually give an emergency notification number for after hours.

  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Tallahassee, FL
    Posts
    1,831
    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    Nope...not even close. Negligence or an accident...fine line for sure.

    Reported??...you are speculating.

    Still don't see the double standard...civilian vs LEO. If it had happened on a tactical range...would it then not be a double standard? Lost in your logic...as your only argument is where it occured, not that it occured. The where has been explained...and the reason why (albeit flawed...but the motivation and intentions true)..

    Rick
    Ok, you're not a cop.

    No such thing as an accident when you load a weapon when it shouldnt have been loaded. He loaded then went BACK into the training scenario live.

    I know some LEO's here and some are friends and I have been told by them that they have to report any expended ammo and any damaged equipment. Ammo apparently is accounted for like in the military. Seems reasonable to me.

    Civilian vs. LEO?? Whats that got to do with it? Being a LEO gives you carte blanche to train anytime anywhere?

    What does a tactical range have to do with double standard? A tactical range is where training belongs, not in some clandestine trip to private property. My argument is that had the training been legitimately done their would have been no ammunition in the weapon when it shouldn't have been. And yes, part of my argument does cover where it happened.
    I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry.
    - Barack Obama Chicago Tribune, April 27, 2004

  8. #22
    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    1,681
    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD View Post
    My argument is that had the training been legitimately done their would have been no ammunition in the weapon when it shouldn't have been. And yes, part of my argument does cover where it happened.
    Are you saying accidents (ok, use your word...negligence) never happens on a range??? Gee, better talk to the LEOs, the military, and the civilian trainers out there...I know of a number...but we would like to believe it is a perfect world. Oh, and their (LEO, military, civilian) training was "legitimately done".

    I can see the argument about trespassing...but since the owner refused to press charges...well then...I guess it wasn't. So, where is the double standard...perhaps with the owner.

    Rick

  9. #23
    Member Array Double Naught Spy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    453
    Smagula, an 11-year veteran with the department and a member of the tactical team, had taken and given several police trainings in building searches, firearm safety and hostage rescue. If the night shift was quiet, it was customary for him to call in the younger officers and put them through technique trainings inside the station, the report said.
    I am so glad I don't live in a town where some rogue higher up officer calls in officers on patrol, has them unload, and then engages in training whilst the town is no longer being protected.

    But he liked the idea of training inside the bank and had Levasseur, Hughes and Williams, the last two brand new officers, meet at the credit union about 3 a.m., the report said.
    I am not sure how it is that they can't find any laws being broken for unlawful entry of the bank.

    The state concluded that Smagula did not intentionally draw his gun on Levasseur or intentionally pull the trigger. Without intent, he did not commit a crime, the state said. Investigators looked at first-degree assault, second-degree assault, simple assault and reckless conduct.
    He didn't intentionally draw and fire? Holy crap. I hope I can use that excuse sometime and get off scott-free.
    Considering yourself to be defenseless is the first administrative step to becoming a victim.

  10. #24
    Member Array socal2310's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Camarillo, CA
    Posts
    467
    Quote Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
    I am so glad I don't live in a town where some rogue higher up officer calls in officers on patrol, has them unload, and then engages in training whilst the town is no longer being protected.

    I am not sure how it is that they can't find any laws being broken for unlawful entry of the bank.

    He didn't intentionally draw and fire? Holy crap. I hope I can use that excuse sometime and get off scott-free.
    Instead of eliminating mens rea as something to be proved by the prosecution when cops are charged, why don't we try to restore this integral part of presumed innocence to the rest of us?

    Ryan
    Those who will not govern their own behavior are slaves waiting for a master; one will surely find them.

  11. #25
    Member Array Double Naught Spy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    453
    Naw, I just want to get of scott free if I accidentally shoot somebody by claiming it was unintentional, that I am in no way responsible. I need a good "Get out of jail free" card.

    Seriously, so conduct is reprehensible.
    Considering yourself to be defenseless is the first administrative step to becoming a victim.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Orioles pitcher: Shooting death was an accident
    By Coder in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: January 4th, 2011, 08:24 AM
  2. BAD: Accident leads to road-rage shooting
    By SIGguy229 in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: May 24th, 2010, 07:49 AM
  3. Tacoma Shooting Details (Graphic Content)
    By ibesarcasm in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: December 30th, 2009, 11:12 PM
  4. Boy Dies After Shooting Accident
    By goldshellback in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 58
    Last Post: October 30th, 2008, 05:02 PM
  5. Shooting a Deer After a Road Accident?
    By JonInNY in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: May 11th, 2008, 07:35 AM

Search tags for this page

officer training accident

Click on a term to search for related topics.