FBI Analysis

This is a discussion on FBI Analysis within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by pgrass101 The problem was the rounds peneatrating the car windsheild and car before they struck him. I am not sure a .45 ...

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Thread: FBI Analysis

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    The problem was the rounds peneatrating the car windsheild and car before they struck him.

    I am not sure a .45 will preform much better. A 9mm would have greater barrier penetration
    Corbon DPX has shown to preform very well after going through a car windshield maintaining integrity, trajectory and penetration.
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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    And yet there are still plenty of people who see absolutely no need to carry a reload for the gun that they carry.

    They feel the 8 or 10 rounds in their pistol is more than enough to take care of any bad guy they would face on the street unless they are facing an army of bad guys.

    Again, it is being foolish in the extreme to assume that the one time you may need your gun, you'll only need the number of rounds carried in the gun itself.

    Hmmm... these 3 officers faced ONE bad guy from a distance of 20 feet.

    For those who continue to insist there is no need to carry reloads, it really begs the question... What is the real reason you carry a gun?

    I fall into the category of folks that think 10 rounds is enough for the civilian. Just because the FBI study indicates a high round count is required for officers on the street, that does not necessarily translate to civilian encounters.

    Unlike law enforcement, I have the option to leave the scene for safety reasons at the first possible opportunity. Second, I am not going to purposely confront an armed suspect (I'm not getting called in by dispatch).

    Study after study confirms that the overwhelming majoring of civilian encounters happen at distances of about 3 feet. If I can't get it done with the five in the gun, the next five won't much matter at those distances.

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    The problem was the rounds peneatrating the car windsheild and car before they struck him.

    I am not sure a .45 will preform much better. A 9mm would have greater barrier penetration
    I think you misread. (Or I did)... in the OTHER referenced situation, the car window was in the way, and the police suspected it was the cause of the poor ballistics performance. In the incident directly referenced, there was no car window and penetration of less than 1" through a down coat and a t-shirt.

    That is disasterously bad, and I hate to say it, but those guys who were saying "shot placement" must not have read the whole post. If you're getting worse penetration than a .22 LR, you have something seriously, seriously wrong.

    I don't understand this at all. Repeated penetration of 1" indicates a repeatable problem -- so what caused this? Rather than trying to find out, they're just going to get different guns? Something is weird, because the .40 should be more than capable of doing better than 1" penetration.
    The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.

  5. #19
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    why are they considering .45acp instead of 10mm, ok I know the answer to that but seriously.

    I carry a reload now, but used to think I didnt need one.
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  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctr View Post
    Study after study confirms that the overwhelming majoring of civilian encounters happen at distances of about 3 feet. If I can't get it done with the five in the gun, the next five won't much matter at those distances.

    Study after study confirms a lot of misses happens in those distances of 3 feet.

    The BG who tries to kill the innocent civilian on the street are the same BG's the cops deal with. Just because you don't go looking for trouble the way police have to doesn't mean trouble isn't going to come looking for you.

    And a lot of people continue to think that their once in a lifetime self defense event is always going to be against a lone bad guy. Well, BG's who rob and rape and mug and shoot you are usually of the "cowardly" persuasion and so, they often travel in packs.

    Stuff happens! Even to the civilian who carries a gun but thinks he'll never need it.

    There isn't a certified firearms trainer in this country who will say don't carry a reload for your weapon. If there is... I'd sure like to meet them, because I don't believe they are out there.
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  7. #21
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    Bark'n is exactly right.
    They are.
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  8. #22
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    With all due respect bark'n, what would your reload have done for you in this situation? ...Nothing! Where do you draw the line? How much ammo is enough ammo? ...The fact is, nobody knows. After reading this article I say screw my handgun and my reloads, I'm strapping my AR-15 to my back!

    For what its worth, I do carry a reload! But the argument for carrying one would be just the same as the argument for carrying ten. IMO carrying 10 rounds (.40 s&w) is better then no rounds. Hell, I didn't carry any for the first 21 years of my life!

  9. #23
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    Civilian carry of extra mags:
    Maybe buy time until cops do show up.

    Another chance for that head shot.

    Reason not involving round count - Malfunctions.

  10. #24
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    .40 S&W

    The advent of the .40 S&W, in it's self is a strange story.

    The FBI Shootout against Platt and Maddox in 1986? caused the usual "Blame game" that has to happen, if the 9mm Silver Tip 115g that came in from one side, and through an arm, had only gone the extra 1" or so, the fight would have been over... Bad Bullet! Naughty Bullet!

    Required! a bigger, badder cartridge = the .10mm! So S&W invented a pistol to fire this fight stopper, an overall disaster!

    The saying the Chief buys the knives, but does not carry them comes to mind! The size of the cartridge, front to back has to fit in the grip you hold! way to big!

    So an engineer who worked for S&W at the time (a real good pistol shot to boot) Tom Campbell (Tommy Gun Campbell) came up with a show stopper, the same bullet in a shorter case, replace large pistol primer with a small pistol primer... Dada! The forty Short and Weak i.e. the .40S&W.

    The fact that the 9mm and .45 calibre had been doing quite a good job for 100 years or so was ignored.

    My own thought (yes only one!) all of the clap trap about guns, hand guns in this case, designed to shoot and kill people, yes those guns, depend on the effectiveness of the projectile, the bullet! So it must penetrate deep enough to strike, and damage major organs and other stuff that the body depends on to continue to function. And fit in a Pistol well enough to carry a bunch, and still fit in the average mitt, that people are born with.

    "More is better, always" I coined that phase back in the mid eighty's, in reference to what I considered crucial to survival in some cases, .38 Special has 6 rounds, Glock 17, has 18 total, .38 equals .357 of an inch, 9mm equals .356 of an inch! And the debate goes on, and on, and on.

    The launching system is immaterial. The bullet does the damage, and the good Firearms Instructor teaches how to hit the parts that count, and hit them a lot.

  11. #25
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    "...The bullet does the damage, and the good Firearms Instructor teaches how to hit the parts that count, and hit them a lot.

    I agree theoretically, but the issue in this case is that the bullets did not perform as we'd expect them to.

    Come on guys, how can you possibly claim this is proves the need for a civilian to carry a spare mag so he can reload in the middle of a gunfight? The fact is, ALL the handgun shots failed - every single one of them - and ALL the reloads failed. What stopped the fight? MULTIPLE hits from an M-4! So doesn't that 'prove' that we need to carry M-4s instead of a spare mag?

    This is simply another verse of the same song as the last thread about an LEO example that was suppose to prove that a lone civie would have a need to and have time and opportunity to reload in the middle of a gunfight.

    How about we think about the facts, not imagined things that did not happen and are not supported by this example. The first bad assumption here is that we, as a single civilian, would have had the same opportunities and time to reload as multiple LEOs did.

    Again, I don't have a thing against carrying a spare mag, but, if you are thinking that rounds on the belt equals rounds in the gun, you may want to rethink that. Let's consider, once again, just from the comments in this thread, the rationale of a lone civie reloading in the heat of a gunfight. It's been said in this thread that it's hard to hit a threat that's moving, while you're moving, with both parties shooting, and I agree. But what's going on in that same gunfight when your gun runs out of ammo? Does the BG just quit shooting? Of course not. So where do you find this time and opportunity and dexterity for that matter, to reload? I mean we've emptied our gun and the fight isn't over, and yet by some magical gap in time, we're gonna have time and opportunity to reload.

    There's nothing at all wrong with carrying extra ammo. My concern is that extra ammo on the belt gives a false sense of security, thinking that we'll have time and opportunity to reload in the middle of a gunfight. Specifically, if that were true, carrying a six shot revolver with two reloads in speed loaders would be equivalent of carrying 18 rounds of 9mm in a G17. It just isn't the same. And thinking that one civilian can do the same job as multiple LEO that ended a fight with multiple hits from an M-4, isn't the same either.
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  12. #26
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    One of, the gunfight in question

    Mr. Tangle,

    Solutions for unknown problems, those that have not occurred yet, are best inoculated against by i.e. Glock 19 with 16 rounds of WW127g Ranger's, plus a malfunction device, a Glock 17 magazine with 17 of the above.

    Why not? The price is right. It ain't heavy, I carry that every day.

  13. #27
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    I'm still astonished at the lack of interest in the fact that in this case .40 S&W performed worse than subsonic 22lr. Nobody else interested in that fact? Or willing to speculate on what it means or why it might be the case? Is .40 S&W fundamentally flawed? Was the ammo defective? Aren't you folks out there carrying a .40S&W deeply concerned and/or worried about this?
    The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPR View Post
    I'm still astonished at the lack of interest in the fact that in this case .40 S&W performed worse than subsonic 22lr. Nobody else interested in that fact? Or willing to speculate on what it means or why it might be the case? Is .40 S&W fundamentally flawed? Was the ammo defective? Aren't you folks out there carrying a .40S&W deeply concerned and/or worried about this?
    This is what I find disturbing too, and after reading the article I am not sure that all rounds went through the car before hitting the BG. If not 1" penetration is horrible
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  15. #29
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    My hypothesis could be all wrong - you'll have to tell me. I carry a 1911.45 for two reasons. One, it has the knock down power I feel is necessary to adequately defend myself, and two the frame is comfortable for me to properly and effectively fire.

  16. #30
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    Shot placement is good, but a moving head is a hard target to hit in that kind of situation. Multiple shots to the chest and stomach area with little penetration? Sounds like a balistic problem to me, I'm no expert, or hater of .40s+w, but wouldn't a .45acp or even .357sig do better?
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