FBI Analysis - Page 4

FBI Analysis

This is a discussion on FBI Analysis within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by HeadHunter There are three possible missions: * Do bad things to bad people; the military mission. * Force compliance with societal dictates ...

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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeadHunter View Post
    There are three possible missions:
    * Do bad things to bad people; the military mission.
    * Force compliance with societal dictates as you interpret them; the law enforcement mission.
    * Break contact; most people's CCW mission.
    Point taken... But even if your only goal is to break contact, why limit your options or your firepower?

    Suppose merely breaking contact and trying to get away (for whatever reason you can't possibly know beforehand) isn't feasible?

    Plan for the worst and hope for the best is a valid training mindset. Planning for the best and hoping the worst doesn't happen is folly.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctr View Post
    I don't disagree on the idea of carrying a reload or 2, it is a good idea in general. But, anyone who thinks they are going to get a reload accomplished when the perp(s) are within 3 feet is kidding themself.
    How could someone possibly know that until they have tried and failed or tried and succeeded?

    Also what makes one think that if a gunfight starts at a distance of 3 feet, you have to remain within 3 feet until it's over? The rule book says you are allowed to shoot on the move.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctr View Post
    My point is, for civilians, carry the reload, but realize if the weapon is fired to empty and it didn't stop the threat, it is highly unlikely that you will live to make the reload.
    I sometimes have a certain style of saying things but there's no offense intended here, and to be blunt, it seems that you have not yet properly developed the mindset of a survivor.

    A survivor mindset is not something that just comes because you say you want to survive or you're going to survive. It is something that is cultivated and developed through training and effort put forth by the individual.

    A person's individual life's experience, training experience, knowledge of tactics (or lack of), mindset and capabilities are not universally held by all people. It doesn't come without time, effort and expense.

    If you attend even one advanced level professional training class such as those given by Thunder Ranch, Lethal Force Institute, Gunsite or a couple of dozen other programs out there, you probably would not have made any of those statements I highlighted in bold, because you would know for yourself they aren't true.

    Without a frame of reference there is only so far you can take yourself. There's no substitute for professional training.

    Gunfights are fast, furious, very dynamic and fluid situations. But you can do extraordinary things if you have a mindset, skill, training and understanding of tactics. Anything can happen and the more tools you have in your tool box, the better chance you have of survival.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."


  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chemistry08 View Post
    With all due respect bark'n, what would your reload have done for you in this situation? ...Nothing! Where do you draw the line? How much ammo is enough ammo? ...


    ...For what its worth, I do carry a reload! But the argument for carrying one would be just the same as the argument for carrying ten. IMO carrying 10 rounds (.40 s&w) is better then no rounds. Hell, I didn't carry any for the first 21 years of my life!
    Not really sure exactly which situation you're talking about? However my point is no one knows for sure which round fired is going to be the round that stops the fight. Why limit your options by only carrying what's in the gun?

    What if you only fire one shot and the floor plate of your magazine goes flying off and all your ammo shoots out on the ground? That has happened before in training so there's no reason to assume it can't happen in a fight!

    At that point, you don't have to just stand there and take what they throw at you. If you are at contact distance you can strike their face to stun them with the heel of your hand as you are moving off axis and towards cover. Reload on the move and continue the fight. There's a multitude of options if you've trained and expect the unexpected.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  3. #48
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    What about training, training, training, practice, practice, practice. To the point where you can make the best, and most accurate shot possible in a specific situation. Then continue to practice and train. And carry an extra magazine or two. Why not prepare for all situations, cover all bases, and hope for the best.

    I don't see why people just don't stress both. I don't see any problem of carrying extra magazines, yes you may be need them someday, maybe you wont. I just know for me I'm going to take all the classes I can on personal defense, and practice as much as I can, and carry an extra magazine or two, and try to be the best prepared I can in case SHTF, isn't that the reason we carry to begin with?
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Point taken... But even if your only goal is to break contact, why limit your options or your firepower?

    Suppose merely breaking contact and trying to get away (for whatever reason you can't possibly know beforehand) isn't feasible?

    Plan for the worst and hope for the best is a valid training mindset. Planning for the best and hoping the worst doesn't happen is folly.
    I think I've addressed this repeatedly, nobody is saying one should not carry extra ammo - that's fine. The issue is the mindset that extra ammo prepares you for the worst - it simply does not.

    Plus, the mindset of carrying extra ammo as if it prepared one for the worst is dangerous. It is a mindset of subbing quantity for training and it is clear from posts that people are getting that message.

    Carrying extra ammo no more prepares one for the worst than carrying two ball bats makes one a better ball player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    How could someone possibly know that until they have tried and failed or tried and succeeded?
    Well here's how I think I know that - four handgun courses at Gunsite up to and including Advanced Tactical Pistol Problems, Gunsite's Tactical Shotgun, Thunder Ranch Level II Low Light Level Pistol, Blackwater Handgun level I and Level II, Integrated Threat Focused Training Systems, and Tactical Shooting Academy.

    These include lots of FOF real-world scenarios.

    So in keeping with your question, "How could you possibly think that you could do a reload in the middle of a gunfight if you've never tried it?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Also what makes one think that if a gunfight starts at a distance of 3 feet, you have to remain within 3 feet until it's over? The rule book says you are allowed to shoot on the move.
    What makes you think it won't be over before you can move?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    I sometimes have a certain style of saying things but there's no offense intended here, and to be blunt, it seems that you have not yet properly developed the mindset of a survivor.

    A survivor mindset is not something that just comes because you say you want to survive or you're going to survive. It is something that is cultivated and developed through training and effort put forth by the individual.
    Mindset must be based on realistic, real-world training and not based on what we can do in dry fire or at the range. It's easy for all of us to talk about survival mindset, and not just surviving but prevailing from behind the safety of our computer. It's quite another thing to get out in a FOF scenario where you can get stung with a Simunitions round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    A person's individual life's experience, training experience, knowledge of tactics (or lack of), mindset and capabilities are not universally held by all people. It doesn't come without time, effort and expense.

    If you attend even one advanced level professional training class such as those given by Thunder Ranch, Lethal Force Institute, Gunsite or a couple of dozen other programs out there, you probably would not have made any of those statements I highlighted in bold, because you would know for yourself they aren't true.
    Been there, done that, and based on many FOF scenarios, I totally disagree with your conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Gunfights are fast, furious, very dynamic and fluid situations. But you can do extraordinary things if you have a mindset, skill, training and understanding of tactics. Anything can happen and the more tools you have in your tool box, the better chance you have of survival.
    Yes they are fast and furious, and I'd like to know where the 2 - 4 seconds and the manual dexterity in that situation comes from to enable a reload.

    And carrying a spare mag is not a 'tool' for most, it is a false sense of security.
    I'm too young to be this old!
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  5. #50
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    I'm learning a lot here....
    "I pledge allegiance to the war banner of the united states of Totalitaria. And to the Republic, which no longer stands, several bankers, who are now god, indivisible, with Bernanke bucks and credit for all."

  6. #51
    Distinguished Member Array Colin's Avatar
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    However the mag is one of the most common problem areas of a autopistol. Without a spare loaded mag you have no way to resolve a mag issue.

  7. #52
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    Tangle… I think your post is very thoughtful and well presented. I do enjoy reading differing points of view, learning new things and being presented alternate methods or techniques. Criticism of one’s words or advice is always humbling and for me is welcomed to help educate or provide opportunity to see something from a different view point. It can also provide opportunity to correct a mistake, clarify an intent or help get someone back on track if they have drifted off topic .

    I can see that viewed individually, some of my statements can be or have been contextually misunderstood, or confused with something it is not. Nor, what I intended to convey. I will try to clarify some of it regarding a survival mindset, which is a separate issue from the benefit of having spare ammunition.

    Carrying reloads and spare ammunition for your weapon is not a mindset which helps prepare you for the worst. I did not intend to convey that message at all.

    Carrying reloads is not a mindset. Or even part of a mindset. I suppose it’s better said that carrying reloads is a “practice, or a habit” one does, which affords them an opportunity they wouldn’t otherwise have.

    It allows the opportunity to carry on the fight should a malfunction to their weapon occur. A good example would be having a “double feed” stoppage. Or, as I stated in the prior post, having the floor plate of your magazine separate and all your rounds come flying out the bottom of your gun. Alternately, if at the time one has fired all the rounds in their weapon (and much to their surprise find themselves still alive), not having the presence of mind beforehand to have a reload available, the fight may in fact be over.

    I would think, suddenly finding yourself with an empty gun and no more bullets available while someone still has the ability and desire to kill you would have to be a sickening feeling of the worst kind. However, that too will likely pass soon after they realize their short sightedness.

    I guess a good analogy would be like playing baseball with a group of friends on a Saturday afternoon at the local sandlot. Suppose in the 3rd inning, you swing away hard at an inside fast ball and connect. The bat shatters in your hand and you’re left holding the splintered handle of your bat. At least the game isn’t over if someone had the forethought to bring an extra bat with them to the game! Having that extra bat certainly doesn’t make you a better player… but it can afford you the opportunity to continue having fun on a Saturday afternoon.

    My quote you used (Also, what makes one think that if a gunfight starts at a distance of 3 feet, you have to remain within 3 feet until it's over? The rule book says you are allowed to shoot on the move.) was directed to a poster who appeared to me to have already made up his mind that if a gunfight starts face to face that is where it will end. And if he emptied his gun, there’s nothing left to do but die.

    Your follow on question in your post asking “what makes me think it won’t be over before I can move?” I can only respond by saying I am under no illusions that it won't end before I have a chance to move. Nor, that I am going to be the one who survives.

    However, with the great training advantage we all gained through the advent of placing video cameras on the dash boards of law enforcement patrol vehicles, I have witnessed upwards of a dozen or more actual gunfights which started face to face, or within 2 or 3 feet, which (A) Did not end up face to face or at the same distance it started. (B) Did not end with the officer getting killed. And (C) In more than one case involved the officer having to reload his weapon.

    Early on, only law enforcement officers had the luxury of dissecting those video tapes and having the benefit of gathering “lessons learned” from the hours of video tape I viewed in the Calibre Press: Street Survival seminar I attended, as well as during my certification classes for instructing defense and control tactics, ground fighting and weapon retention & disarming techniques.

    Today, through television networks like Tru TV, Spike and A&E, civilians (and ccw permit holders) all over the country have an opportunity to see some of these same videos on programs like “Worlds scariest police shootouts” and the like.

    Although as presented on television in a somewhat “sensationalistic” form of TV entertainment; and without having the ability of law enforcement trainers to stop tape in mid action and discussing tactics and techniques… a person does not have to be a cop in order to learn something from seeing shows like that on regular TV.

    The dynamics of a gunfight which involves a bad guy trying to kill a good guy share a lot of commonalities which does not change whether a person is a law enforcement officer or a civilian merely walking to the car in an enclosed parking garage.

    Finally, in regards to my mention of the more tools you have in your tactical toolbox, the better chances you have of survival I certainly stand by. For me, a tactical toolbox is a compilation of the combined skills one has developed through the years, one’s knowledge of tactics, one’s personal marksmanship abilities, lessons from real life experience as well as your choice of weapons; both lethal and non-lethal and anything else you carry like tactical flashlights and such.

    While the concept of carrying spare ammunition for a weapon obviously isn’t a tool from the toolbox, per’ say… It is merely a component for a weapon you do carry. Whatever you want to call “the reload”, it is anything but a false sense of security.

    As far as what is a survivor mindset is or is not. That is a topic for it’s own thread and requires much more in-depth discussion.

    Hopefully I have cleared up any misconception or confusion which may have lingered in someone’s mind.

    Cheers
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  8. #53
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    Ballistics, spares, manual of arms ... people who understand statistics know that sooner or later, someone will be the one to face an extended threat, no matter how low the probability may seem. An experienced, crusty master sergeant liked to pick nits with me. He bought me a beer over this comeback;

    You train to go to war. I train to come home with all of my parts in good repair.

    That was a might fine beer. ;)

  9. #54
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    .40 in one inch!

    What we have been talking about is total BS!

    A 180g projectile, traveling at 1000 FPS, or there about, penetrates just 1" into a human body? Impossible.

    Totally stupid.

  10. #55
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    Scouse, did you miss the part about the slug going through a windshield first?

  11. #56
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    Any solid obstruction can critically effect ballistics. Especially in a handgun round. And on the other hand there will always be examples where similar circumstances did not effect the terminal ballistics of a given round. The problem with examples like this one posted is it lacks so much scientific evidence and then all the speculation hits the fan from all sides.

    I never draw definitive conclusions regarding my defensive ammunition selections from these types of examples. But it is interesting food for conversation.

    In this same incident, the back of the subject's seat was struck multiple times, the .40 S&W rounds never penetrated through the seat.

    In this incident, all shots had passed through either the windshield or rear window. Investigators assume that this was the reason for the poor ballistic performance.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klaatu View Post
    Scouse, did you miss the part about the slug going through a windshield first?
    Yes!!

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klaatu View Post
    Silence does not equal lack of interest. For my part, I lack enough data to comfortably speculate. Of course something is not right about this. I am astonished that the department in question or the FBI report has not gone into more detail about testing the ammo. I would like to have a case of ammo from the same lot used in this incident and do some testing, but that is not going to happen. Perhaps testing was done, heads were rolled and lawyers signed gag agreements. But that is just pointless speculation on my part, the likes of which I prefer to avoid.

    I fire enough ammo to be confident in what I carry.
    I agree with you, and question the “quality” of the 40 caliber ammo the PD was using.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klaatu View Post
    Ballistics, spares, manual of arms ... people who understand statistics know that sooner or later, someone will be the one to face an extended threat, no matter how low the probability may seem. An experienced, crusty master sergeant liked to pick nits with me. He bought me a beer over this comeback;

    You train to go to war. I train to come home with all of my parts in good repair.

    That was a might fine beer. ;)
    Gunfight statistics indicate the chances of a civilian needing to reload in an ongoing gunfight are incredibly unlikely. In fact, and I've said this before, if we all started looking, we'd have a hard time finding any civilian gunfight where the civilian had to reload in the middle of the gunfight. Since I said that very thing some months ago, no one has found even a single incident where a civilian reloaded in an ongoing gunfight, or that his mag fell apart, or that his mag suddenly failed.

    Even if we could find a few such incidents, we need to remember that we're comparing a very few, very rare incidents, which we have not found yet BTW, to tens of millions of civies defending themselves with guns without reloading.

    I fully agree with your master sergeant, but believing that a spare mag fulfills that truism is folly. I had a simulator where I shot a BG, subdued lighting, and went on through the simulator. In the debriefing, the instructor asked me if I realized one of the threats had on a vest. I did not. He said, "Why do you think we train you to do something else if two shots to the COM don't work?" I learned a lot that day.

    The point is, and the point of all my posts regarding this subject, is not that one shouldn't carry spare ammo, but that one shouldn't equate carrying spare ammo as being prepared for the worst, or for that matter being prepared at all. When I went through the simulator, I had more than enough spare mags on me, I didn't even need to reload through the whole thing. So if ammo prepares us for the worst, I should have been fully prepared for these encounters, but clearly I was not, even though I had more ammo on me than I could possibly use.

    Bark'n,
    I appreciate your candid remarks, so let me clarify as well. I have nothing against carrying spare ammo as long, and this is the critical part, as it's not a false security. By false security, I mean someone that finds reassurance in carrying more ammo and hence doesn't have or get the training, tactics, and marksmanship they really need, because they carry extra ammo so they're prepared. If one is lacking in these three critical areas - training, tactics, and marksmanship, and they simply strap on more ammo, they've really gained nothing. And I think it's vitially important that people realize that.

    There is a huge difference in breaking a bat in a ball game where you can call time out, everybody relaxes while you replace your broken bat and a defensive scenario. The defensive scenario of a broken bat would be is if a fight broke out, you swing your bat to defend yourself and it breaks on the other guys bat. Do you really have time to replace your bat in the middle of a bat fight? No.

    As for the example of a mag falling apart, while it's in the gun, in the middle of a gunfight, it's equally statistically likely that the firing pin would break, so now we need to carry a BUG to cover that also. Where does it end?

    Regarding a double feed. A double feed requires by far more time to correct than a simple speed reload. So if a speed reload takes from 2 - 4 seconds depending on the level of training of the individual, and the opportunity to actually reload in the gunfight, how much longer is it going to take to correct a double feed - from 8 - 15 seconds to never?

    Most people simply don't have the training, practice, and skills to perform these things in the middle of a gunfight. Even myself with all the training I've had, I'm not sure I could do a reload, much less a double feed clear in the middle of a gunfight, and I'm convinced I wouldn't have the time to anyway. That's why I carry high cap guns - to minimize the chances of running the gun dry before the fight is over. And the fewer rounds in the gun when the fight starts, the more likely we are to run the gun dry.

    The concept of reloading in the middle of a gunfight only works when we can set the conditions of the gunfight to favor a reload, e.g. the BG, for whatever reason, cannot shoot us during the 2 - 4 seconds it takes us to reload. That's a pretty demanding condition.

    Another condition is that in the stress of a life or death gunfight, we don't muff the reload. Proponents for reloading in the middle of a gunfight often talk about all the things that can go wrong that could be solved with a spare mag, but they never consider that the reload could be muffed and the mag fall out of reach, etc.

    And if I may say so, that spare mag is a magical device. It always goes in the gun smoothly and quickly, the spare mag is NEVER the one to malfunction or fall apart as you pull it from the mag pouch, nor when you slam it into the gun, it always seats properly, never has a malfunction, and is never dropped. It kinda makes one wonder why that magical spare mag wasn't in the gun to start with.

    But back to setting the conditions for a gunfight to favor a reload. It's pretty much the same dogma, I'm out of ammo, the BG can't shoot me while I reload, I'll reload in 2 seconds and continue shooting the BG. That sounds messed up just to say it.

    In summary, I am certainly not saying we shouldn't carry a reload. In fact, one reason I carry a reload is to top off the gun after the gunfight. But, when the spare mag becomes a false security, and supplants training, practice, tactics, and marksmanship, then a spare mag can be a detriment, not an asset. Too much confidence in the wrong thing.
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    Actually, I think Tango makes a great case for a New York Reload if your jurisdiction permits. You are far more likely to be successful in drawing and firing a BUG in the case of a malfunction or running out of ammo than in reloading.

    On the other hand, I rather seriously doubt that anyone here actually believes that having enough ammunition will compensate for their being unable to hit the broad side of a barn (anyone who does believe that is welcome to state their conviction so we can all mock you )

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