FBI Analysis

FBI Analysis

This is a discussion on FBI Analysis within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; The results of this FBI analysis really reinforces the importance of shot placement if you are ever forced to use your gun against an attacker. ...

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Thread: FBI Analysis

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array PatrioticRick's Avatar
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    FBI Analysis

    The results of this FBI analysis really reinforces the importance of shot placement if you are ever forced to use your gun against an attacker. Police fired a total of 107 rounds at the single suspect and it took an M4 rifle to finally incapacitate him. The suspect was able to fire 26 rounds from his .45 caliber handgun and even reloaded from a box of loose rounds.
    3 officers were involved in a shooting this week. An ambush was set up for the officers prior to their arrival, they took fire while still in their cruisers. One officer was hit in the forearm, another received wounds to his forehead from a ricochet, another was injured (NFI). The suspect was armed with a .45 handgun. The officers were armed with Glock 22's (.40S&W) and SPEER 180 gr. Gold Dot Hollow Points.

    Officers fired on the subject and hit him in the left arm, completely shattering the bone. He was also hit five times in the chest and abdomen. All rounds penetrated less than 1 (one inch) $B!m(B. All of the rounds expanded fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration. According to the Medical Examiner, none of the rounds caused any life threatening injuries. The subject also received one round into the front of his throat, it penetrated less than 1$B!m(B as well. The Medical Examiner stated that the recovered rounds were in pristine condition (still had rifling marks on them).

    The subject was wearing a down jacket at the time of the incident. He was finally taken down after receiving rounds from an M-4 .223, with Hornady Tap 55 gr ballistic tip rounds and Hornady Tap 72 gr. Hollow Points.

    The officer with the M-4 was able to shoot underneath a vehicle and hit the suspect in the ankle. The officer then flanked the subject, who continued to engage officers, and was eventually killed by the officer with the M-4.

    The subject had a trace amount of marijuana in his system.

    Range between subject and officers: 20 feet.

    Subject had a t-shirt on under his jacket.

    Subject received approximately sixteen .223 rounds, thirteen of these rounds went completely through. One round struck his hip and completely shattered it. Another .223 round struck his aorta and another pierced and collapsed his lung. Both of these rounds lodged themselves inside the subject. The Medical Examiner stated that the .223 rounds caused massive internal damage.

    This is the second shooting that the PD has experienced where they had to shoot a subject in excess of ten times with .40 S&W ammo to incapacitate or kill. There was another incident where a subject was shot inside of his vehicle. He was struck approximately ten times, all the while continuing to fire at officers. He was eventually killed after suffering a shot to the back of his head.

    In this same incident, the back of the subject's seat was struck multiple times, the .40 S&W rounds never penetrated through the seat. In this incident, all shots had passed through either the windshield or rear window. Investigators assume that this was the reason for the poor ballistic performance.

    (The) PD is now considering replacing their Glock 22's (.40S&W) with Glock 21's (.45ACP).
    Here is the FBI's PowerPoint presentation on this incident.
    I have a PDF to go with this article, but I can't figure out how to post it. If you would like to see it PM me with I will send it to you.
    *** WARNING: This PDF contains autopsy photos ***
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  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Run a search...

    This is two or more years old info toward an event that has been detailed, including the PDF you reference, multiples of times here and allover the interent.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

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    And yet there are still plenty of people who see absolutely no need to carry a reload for the gun that they carry.

    They feel the 8 or 10 rounds in their pistol is more than enough to take care of any bad guy they would face on the street unless they are facing an army of bad guys.

    Again, it is being foolish in the extreme to assume that the one time you may need your gun, you'll only need the number of rounds carried in the gun itself.

    Hmmm... these 3 officers faced ONE bad guy from a distance of 20 feet.

    For those who continue to insist there is no need to carry reloads, it really begs the question... What is the real reason you carry a gun?
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array AllAmerican's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    And yet there are still plenty of people who see absolutely no need to carry a reload for the gun that they carry.

    They feel the 8 or 10 rounds in their pistol is more than enough to take care of any bad guy they would face on the street unless they are facing an army of bad guys.

    Again, it is being foolish in the extreme to assume that the one time you may need your gun, you'll only need the number of rounds carried in the gun itself.

    Hmmm... these 3 officers faced ONE bad guy from a distance of 20 feet.

    For those who continue to insist there is no need to carry reloads, it really begs the question... What is the real reason you carry a gun?
    Wow... I couldnt agree more...
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  5. #5
    Member Array MiloSC's Avatar
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    Two words. Shot Placement.
    When in doubt empty the magazine.

    "There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the enemy." - George Washington

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array SatCong's Avatar
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    For me shot placement for too!
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    Two words. Shot Placement.
    Sounds good.

    Not as easy to do when someone is moving and shooting back.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Sounds good.

    Not as easy to do when someone is moving and shooting back.
    +1 on that!

    I get a tickle out of the fact that most people truly do not know what it's like to be in full blown body alarm mode and to be certain you may actually die in the next 10 seconds.

    Most people have never been so afraid they have actually soiled themselves, and yet it happens frequently in real gunfights. It's actually a side effect to physiological things that happen to the body when "fight or flight" kicks in when moments prior it was totally unexpected.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  9. #9
    Member Array Klaatu's Avatar
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    I will always be able to hear Drill Sergeant Moore addressing the platoon with, "Don't pi** yourself, trainees." Much amusing rants were sure to follow that opening line.

  10. #10
    Ex Member Array Acecool's Avatar
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    This is why I am getting a P30... 2x 15 round mags..

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array jeephipwr's Avatar
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    He was also hit five times in the chest and abdomen. All rounds penetrated less than 1 (one inch) $B!m(B. All of the rounds expanded fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration.

    The way I read this is they hit pretty close to COM but the ammo didnt perform.

  12. #12
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    Do you have a link?

    Disregard... found it: http://concealedcarryholsters.org/fb...lice-shootout/
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

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  13. #13
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    This has been a real eye opener. Me thinks another mag full of .45ACP is an important accessory.

  14. #14
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    The problem was the rounds peneatrating the car windsheild and car before they struck him.

    I am not sure a .45 will preform much better. A 9mm would have greater barrier penetration
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  15. #15
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    They need grenades like the cops in mexico,throw towards threat run in opposite direction
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