Shot intended for wayward cow fells Va farmer - Page 2

Shot intended for wayward cow fells Va farmer

This is a discussion on Shot intended for wayward cow fells Va farmer within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; It sounds like the guy needs a better defense attorney if he isn't presenting a case, has no ballistics experts of his own to dispute ...

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  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    It sounds like the guy needs a better defense attorney if he isn't presenting a case, has no ballistics experts of his own to dispute the medical examiner's OPINION. I would like to know if the medical examiner is a ballistics expert as well? I will be shocked if there was no objection to her statement.
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

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  2. #17
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    I'm aware of the bullet between the eyes, but were not talking a animal that is penned up and you have a clear shot on.
    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    I never said anything as to whether he did or didn't have a clear shot.
    I'm just sayin'

    But now that we have more facts, or what we can assume to be facts, we can move on.
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff View Post
    ... I would like to know if the medical examiner is a ballistics expert as well? I will be shocked if there was no objection to her statement.
    She's a court certified expert witness. She's testified in many cases, and is a board certified forensic pathologist. Her opinion can be weighed by the jury - they don't have to give it a lot of (or any) weight if they find it hard to believe.

    As far as ballistics go, that's one of the things that forensic pathologists deal with. Entry angles, wound channels, characteristics of bullet flight. But that doesn't really matter much when they find three gunshot wounds in the intended victim (Cow), one in the unintended victim (Man), and the defendant admits to firing four shots.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    matiki,
    good points. But isn't the defense's case built on the fact that the bullet ricochet and this expert said something to the effect that it wasn't possible because the bullet wasn't tumbling? Wouldn't it then be the responsiblity of the defense to question her on that statement or present their own witness disputing her assertion? Maybe that happended and we just don't know from this article. Maybe I've been watching too much CSI. I would have thought that the medical examiner's expertise was in what killed the guy, not necessarily the physics behind how the bullet got there.
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array ErikGr7's Avatar
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    Well I can't say anything either way as we would have
    to have all the details and thats why its going to court
    I guess.

    I am puzzled about using a .357 handgun for putting
    down a farm animal? Why 4 shots to kill a cow?

    ehow quote"Shoot the cow with a .22 caliber gun at
    the point where lines from eyes to opposite ears intersect,
    approximately the middle of the forehead at a point
    above the eyes"

    Its still a horrible situation and I am sorry for both people
    involved.
    Last edited by ErikGr7; February 25th, 2009 at 01:26 PM. Reason: mis-spelling

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff View Post
    matiki,
    good points. But isn't the defense's case built on the fact that the bullet ricochet and this expert said something to the effect that it wasn't possible because the bullet wasn't tumbling? Wouldn't it then be the responsiblity of the defense to question her on that statement or present their own witness disputing her assertion? Maybe that happended and we just don't know from this article. Maybe I've been watching too much CSI. I would have thought that the medical examiner's expertise was in what killed the guy, not necessarily the physics behind how the bullet got there.
    I don't have the case in front of me (and at $.08 per page I'll probably skip pulling this one), but I suspect her testimony was that based on the wound, the bullet was not tumbling or wobbling. In other words: It was a clean entry/exit. As far as whether or not it bounced off the cow, concrete, etc. she can only give her opinion, and in court only experts can provide opinion.

    We can only speculate as to why the defense did not provide their own expert witness. Perhaps the defense wasn't very good as you've speculated, or perhaps there is not an expert witness that agrees with the defenses contention.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  7. #22
    Member Array llongshot's Avatar
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    Lets look at the .22 between the eyes theory. I too have butchered many farm animals using this method. NONE of which I had to chase through a couple of miles of swamp/woods/interstate. This, at a minimum, makes me think that the only end of the cow available to the shooter was the southern exposure. Also consider that anyone having attempted to get in front of this animal trying, in vain, to turn it for the probable period of time involved is also, at a minimum, very tired and, at the worst, breathing so heavily an accurate shot is next to impossible. Add a little anger which makes it impossible to take a cool calculated shot and I believe reckless endangerment is a VERY viable assumption.

  8. #23
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    Not guilty

    Floyd County jury finds animal control officer not guilty of manslaughter - Roanoke.com

    Floyd County jury finds animal control officer not guilty of manslaughter

    A Floyd County jury has found former animal control officer Garland “Bucky” Nester not guilty of involuntary manslaughter but guilty of a misdemeanor charge of reckless handling of a firearm in connection with the shooting death of his neighbor last year.

    At issue for jurors was whether Nester showed a “reckless disregard for human life,” part of the legal definition for involuntary manslaughter, when he shot four times at an uncontrollable cow and one of the bullets struck 75-year-old Paul Belcher, who had gone to help on May 29.

    Jurors deliberated about two hours this afternoon before returning their verdict. After a brief sentencing hearing, they sentenced Nester to serve 140 days in jail.

    testimony started Tuesday afternoon. Among the witnesses was Belcher's widow, Jean, who told jurors that she and her husband watched for a few minutes as Nester chased the Holstein. It had wandered onto the Blue Ridge Parkway, which connects with Conner Grove Road, where the Belchers and the Nesters live.

    Paul Belcher said, “Well I guess I’ll just go over there and help him,” Jean Belcher testified.

    She said she watched as her husband left in his truck and parked at the side of the road. Then she heard gunshots and someone screaming, “Oh, I’ve been shot.”

    Paul Belcher was shot while he was talking with Nester’s teenage son. Garland Nester was about 190 feet away, in a field down a 15-foot embankment from the roadway with his with his personal .357-caliber pistol.

    Nester did not testify, and defense attorney David Damico did not present any evidence this afternoon.
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  9. #24
    Member Array LinkT's Avatar
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    Clearly some people here have never chased cows before.

    That said, it's a terrible situation. Know your target and what is beyond. . .
    Life is about choices. One who chooses to attack without cause has also chosen to accept whatever defensive measures his target has readied. If this includes violence and death, so be it.

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  10. #25
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    I wonder...

    After having watched a few episodes of Dr. G Medical Examiner, I really question some of her assumptions, both gun and non gun related. I am not doubting the science, just the application of that science.

    Do MEs have to go to some school where they are taught and tested on the application of these sciences?

    Sure does seem like a lot of speculation going on, like when detectives and prosecuting attorneys come up with a theory about a crime and then try to prove it, to the exclusion of all other theories. And I've always thought that was quite, shall we say, unscientific.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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  11. #26
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    Here's some more speculation, based on gun handling I've seen (I work at a shooting range).

    I'm also not banking on an accurate description of the handgun since I've seen "semi-automatic revolver" before - this works either way:

    Belcher is above line of sight. Nester has a revolver, fires a shot, cocks hammer as pistol is still pointing up and, of course, still has finger on trigger. Light trigger pull results in gun going off while Nester is lowering gun back to target and trying to settle it back into comfortable grip.

    Nester has semi-auto, fires shot, pistol recoils up, instinctively Nester tries to grasp pistol firmer as it recoils or similar action to revolver scenario, finger still on trigger, gun fires.

    I've seen both of these types of scenarios happen numerous times.

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array BruceGibson's Avatar
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    This is one of the most bizarre stories I've ever read. I've probably already said too much.

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    I wonder...

    After having watched a few episodes of Dr. G Medical Examiner, I really question some of her assumptions, both gun and non gun related. I am not doubting the science, just the application of that science.

    Do MEs have to go to some school where they are taught and tested on the application of these sciences?

    Sure does seem like a lot of speculation going on, like when detectives and prosecuting attorneys come up with a theory about a crime and then try to prove it, to the exclusion of all other theories. And I've always thought that was quite, shall we say, unscientific.
    Scientific/Science are often misunderstood.

    To be scientific you make observations, formulate hypotheses (guesses based on your experience, and observations), then test your hypotheses and re assess your hypotheses.

    So guesses are scientific, when approached the right way. The ME has extensive experience with gunshot wounds and other causes of death, and has formed and tested hypotheses in the past.

    To me, whether or not it was a ricochet means nothing. Ricochet or miss, they were both intended for the cow but ultimately killed the neighbor (who as it turns out, was standing next to the shooters son). He shot without knowing what was beyond his target, and the jury agreed that it was criminal, but not to the full level he was originally charged.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Sure does seem like a lot of speculation going on, like when detectives and prosecuting attorneys come up with a theory about a crime and then try to prove it, to the exclusion of all other theories. And I've always thought that was quite, shall we say, unscientific.
    Even when evidance is based on reputal research the application can be wrong.

    Check out:

    Evidence Of Injustice
    FBI's Bullet Lead Analysis Used Flawed Science To Convict Hundreds Of Defendants

    CBS) This segment was originally broadcast on Nov. 18, 2007. It was updated on Sept. 12, 2008.

    Aside from eyewitness testimony, some of the most believable evidence presented in criminal cases in the United States comes from the FBI crime laboratory in Quantico, Va. Part of its job is to test and analyze everything from ballistics to DNA for state and local prosecutors around the country, introducing scientific credibility to often murky cases.

    But a six-month investigation by 60 Minutes and The Washington Post last November showed that there are hundreds of defendants imprisoned around the country who were convicted with the help of a now discredited forensic tool, and that the FBI never notified them, their lawyers, or the courts, that the their cases may have been affected by faulty testimony.

    The science, called bullet lead analysis, was used by the FBI for 40 years in thousands of cases, and some of the people it helped put in jail may be innocent.

    As correspondent Steve Kroft reports, one of them is Lee Wayne Hunt, who is now serving a life sentence for murder in North Carolina.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Lee Wayne Hunt tells Kroft he's been behind bars for over 22 years and 6 months, and maintains he's an innocent man. "What I've said from the word get go that I ain't -- never killed nobody. I didn't have nothing to do with this," he says.

    Hunt was convicted in 1986 of murdering two people in Fayetteville, N.C., based on the testimony of two questionable witnesses and what turned out to be erroneous ballistics testimony from the FBI lab.

    For years, the FBI believed that lead in bullets had unique chemical signatures, and that by breaking them down and analyzing them, it was possible to match bullets, not only to a single batch of ammunition coming out of a factory, but to a single box of bullets. And that is what the FBI did in the case of Lee Wayne Hunt, tying a bullet fragment found where the murders took place to a box of bullets the prosecutors linked to Hunt.

    "I put it exactly the way it sounded to me, and the way that I believe it to be," Hunt says. "He said that this box of bullets is the same box of bullets that was used to kill these people, made on, about the same time."

    "I think everybody in the courtroom assumed that this was valid evidence," says Hunt's attorney, Richard Rosen.

    Asked how important he thinks this was to his client's conviction, Rosen says, "I thought it was very important to our client's conviction. It was the single piece of physical evidence corroborating their story. And it came from, you know, it came from the mountaintop."

    The FBI first used bullet lead analysis while investigating the assassination of John F. Kennedy, trying to match pieces of bullets discovered at Dealey Plaza with bullets found in Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle.

    By the 1980's, the FBI was routinely using this analysis to link bullet fragments found at a crime scene with bullets found in the possession of a suspect, almost always in cases where more reliable ballistics tests were impossible.

    "And could you run like a standard ballistics test on this?" Kroft asks William Tobin, a former chief metallurgist for the FBI.

    "No," Tobin says. "They're too deformed for the conventional ballistics examinations."

    Tobin says the Quantico lab was the only place in the country that did bullet lead analysis, and the assertion that you could actually match a bullet fragment to a specific batch or box of bullets went unchallenged for 40 years -- until Tobin retired in 1998 and decided to do his own study, discovering that the basic premise had never actually been scientifically tested.

    "FBI lab personnel testified that you could match these fragments to this bullet," Kroft remarks.

    "Yes, that's correct," Tobin says.

    Asked what he found out, Tobin tells Kroft, "It hadn't been based on science at all, but rather had been based on subjective belief for over four decades."

    "So what you're saying is that this is junk science?" Kroft asks.

    "That's correct," Tobin says. "It's worthless as a forensic tool."

    Tobin spent months buying and testing bullets and consulting with manufacturers and found that bullets from the same batch weren't chemically uniform, that bullets from the same box didn’t always match, and that it was statistically possible for every bullet manufactured in the U.S. to have tens of millions of twins.

    Back in 2002, the FBI lab asked the National Academy of Sciences to conduct an independent review of comparative bullet lead analysis. And 18 months later, its National Research Council came out with a report calling into question 30 years of FBI testimony.

    It found the model the FBI used for interpreting results was deeply flawed and that the conclusion that bullet fragments could be matched to a box of ammunition so overstated, that it was misleading under the rules of evidence.

    Dwight Adams was the FBI lab director who commissioned the National Academy of Sciences study that ended up debunking decades of FBI testimony, some of which Kroft read back to him.

    "Commonwealth versus Daye: 'Two bullet fragments found in Patricia Paglia's body came from the same box of ammunition.' State versus Mordenti, in Florida: 'It's my opinion that all of those bullets came from the same box of ammunition.' Is that supported by the science?" Kroft asks.

    "The science never supported such a statement," Adams replies.

    "But this was the testimony that was given by people in the lab for 30 years," Kroft points out.

    "You know, I'm sure as you have found that that is the case in some cases. But the science does not support that," Adams says. "This kind of testimony was misleading and inappropriate in criminal trials."

    A year after the National Academy of Sciences report, Adams decided that the lab would stop doing bullet lead analysis and the FBI notified police departments and the national associations of district attorneys and criminal defense lawyers. The form letters, which underplayed the significance of the problem, said the lab "still firmly supported the scientific foundation of bullet lead analysis," but questions had been raised about its value in the courtroom.

    "I've got a copy of the letter that you sent to the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers," Kroft tells Adams. "Nowhere in here does it say that the testimony you've been offering for 30 years is no longer valid."

    "It's just not in this letter," Kroft says.

    "First of all, I don't believe that letter could contain testimonies regarding 100 or 200 or 300 testimonies," Adams replies.

    "This letter that you sent never specifically states the testimony offered by the lab, by lab personnel, was wrong. It's just not in here. Yet, you just acknowledged it to me. Why wasn't it in there? I mean, that's a headline grabber," Kroft asks. "I mean, that should be the first sentence of the release, shouldn't it?"

    "This review was about the science of bullet lead analysis. And I determined, based upon that review, that it wasn't an appropriate technique," Adams says.

    "Did you tell the Justice Department, 'We have this problem and … you ought to undertake a review of these cases?'?" Kroft asks.

    "It's not my position to tell the Department of Justice what they should and should not do," Adams says.

    Adams says he sent a memo to FBI Director Robert Mueller, stating "we cannot afford to be misleading to a jury" and "we plan to discourage prosecutors from using our previous results in future prosecutions."

    But neither the FBI, nor the Justice Department, made an attempt to identify the cases in which flawed testimony had been given, or to notify the defendants, prosecutors or judges involved.

    "I think it's a failure on the part of the lawyers at the Department of Justice to own up to a very, very serious error," says Berry Scheck, a director of "The Innocence Project."

    The organization has helped free more than 200 wrongly convicted defendants. He says the Justice Department has a legal obligation to notify defendants about any information that might help prove their innocence, even after they have been convicted.

    "When federal agents come into court and testify to something that we now know was scientific error that could be crucial, crucial evidence in serious cases … you've gotta go in and make a serious, realistic effort to give people a chance to correct the errors. That's only fair," Scheck argues.

    "You can't even begin to talk about raising this issue on appeal if the people involved don't know it happened," he adds.

    Only the FBI can identify the cases in which bullet lead analysis was performed, yet it has resisted releasing that information

    So 60 Minutes joined forces with The Washington Post to see if we could find some of the cases ourselves. Our producers and Post reporter John Solomon worked with The Innocence Project and a team of summer associates from the New York law firm Skadden, Arps, who conducted computer sweeps of court files.

    We managed to identify 250 cases in which bullet lead testimony was a factor, and a dozen where it played a pivotal role in deciding the outcome. And that's after looking at only a small percentage of the total cases.

    "There's all together something like 2,500 cases that the FBI analyzed since the 80s. There could be, you know, 30, 40, 50, who knows -- instances where people were wrongfully convicted," Scheck says.

    A half a dozen defendants, like a North Carolina pastor who was accused of killing his son-in-law, have already won their freedom or a new trial by appealing bullet lead testimony.

    Others, like a Baltimore police sergeant convicted of murdering his girlfriend, and Lee Wayne Hunt, are still in jail.

    "I never denied that I was a marijuana dealer in Cumberland County. But I'm denyin' that I ever killed anybody," Hunt says.

    "We had fraudulent scientific evidence, that the only concrete evidence that was used in this case, the only physical evidence, was bogus," Hunt's lawyer Richard Rosen tells Kroft.

    But Lee Wayne Hunt and his attorney aren't the only ones who believe Hunt was wrongly convicted with bullet lead testimony. At a hearing in January, the case took a strange twist when Staples Hughes, the appellate defender for the state of North Carolina came forward and revealed a secret that he had been keeping for more than 20 years.

    "The thing that makes this so terrible is that Lee Wayne Hunt didn't do it. That's what makes it so terrible. He didn't do it. He's not guilty," Hughes says.

    Hughes says he's sure of that.

    Twenty-two years ago, as a young public defender, Hughes was representing Lee Wayne Hunt's co-defendant in the double murder that sent him to prison for life.

    Hughes says his client, Jerry Cashwell, told him in great detail, shortly after he was arrested, how he alone had committed the double murder. Lee Wayne Hunt, he said, wasn't even there. But because of the attorney-client privilege, Staples Hughes was duty-bound to keep the secret.

    "It was sort of one of those moments that stops you completely still," Hughes says. "You know, my client's saying, 'Not only did I kill two people, but these other folks didn't have anything to do with it. The state's case is a lie. It's a fabrication.'"

    Asked if he tried to get Cashwell to tell that to the authorities, Hughes says, "No."

    Because?

    "I'm his lawyer," Hughes says. "It wasn't in his interest to tell, to have that known at all."

    "Because he could have been facing the death penalty?" Kroft asks.

    "He was facing the death penalty. It wasn't theoretical," Hughes says.

    Asked if this bothered him, Hughes tells Kroft, "It bothered me most when Mr. Hunt was being tried. And it's bothered me ever since. There wasn’t anything I could do about it. But I knew they were trying a guy who didn’t do it."

    It wasn't until his client committed suicide in prison that Hughes felt he could come forward to tell his story in court. But instead of being commended for coming forward to clear an innocent man, the judge threw out his testimony and reported Hughes to the North Carolina bar for violating attorney-client privilege, even though his client was dead.

    "I'm not too happy to be in the position I am in now," Hughes says. "But there's a guy in prison for somethin' he didn't do."

    It's impossible to know right now how many other bullet lead cases like this there may be out there in the netherworld of the criminal justice system. But Dwight Adams, the former FBI lab director who began to have doubts about the science, believes it's time for the government to reveal all of the information.

    "I don't believe there is anything that we should be hiding," Adams says. "I believe that everything should be made available in regards to the testimonies and the cases that were worked involving bullet lead analysis."


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The FBI ultimately agreed, acknowledging that some of its bullet lead testimony was misleading and that it should have done more to alert defendants and the courts. As a result of the 60 Minutes-Washington Post investigation, the bureau has already reviewed nearly a hundred cases, and according to the Innocence Project there are problems with the FBI testimony in almost half of them.

    The complaint against Staples Hughes for violating attorney-client privilege has been dismissed. But Lee Wayne Hunt remains in prison, after the North Carolina Supreme Court refused to hear his appeal.
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  15. #30
    Distinguished Member Array Paymeister's Avatar
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    I was surprised to see where this happened - it was only about ten miles away - five from the place we rented when we first arrived.

    Although I've only lived here for 10 years I have a pretty good idea of who lives here: Nester and Belcher are both respected names, and have probably been in the county since the first land was cleared. And people here generally aren't fools, either: I have great admiration for the character of practically everyone I've met here. Maybe Nester was too hot under the collar and too exhausted to control his weapon, but I'll bet you dinner at Jim's Grill that those tears he shed were sincere, that he has been a hard-working animal control officer, and that he was trained and proficient. Good reminder for us all when angry or exhausted.

    My heart goes out to the Belchers. The Belcher I know is an angel (he delivers our mail), and the attitude shown by the deceased was just what I expect out here - two nights ago another passer-by and I helped with a loose horse. Very sad.
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