'Say please' at U. S. border nets pepper spray - Page 3

'Say please' at U. S. border nets pepper spray

This is a discussion on 'Say please' at U. S. border nets pepper spray within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; If the article is indeed correct,I dont believe that the agent was justified in escalating the situation by using pepper spray. The use of force ...

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Thread: 'Say please' at U. S. border nets pepper spray

  1. #31
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    If the article is indeed correct,I dont believe that the agent was justified in escalating the situation by using pepper spray.

    The use of force should only be applied when nothing else will work.

    That being said, if I had used spray just because someone asked me to be polite, when the Sheriff was told of it,I would have been at the very least disciplined or fired on the spot for use of excessive force.

    Officers need to be thicker skinned and they shouldnt let minor things like drivers with pet peeves to be annoying them.

    It would seem that just a little bit of communication skills would have been great here. It dosent take that much to make people understand, even total idiots can usally be made to understand that it is within their best interests to comply.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  2. #32
    Member Array XDFender's Avatar
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    Should the agents be more polite--absolutely yes; there is no reason for not adding a simple "please" to the instructions to turn off the vehicle.

    Having said that, Mr. Fortunato is dipstick and got exactly what he deserved. When an LEO gives you an order--especially a lawful order--you obey that order, or you accept the consequences. It's just that simple.

    Mr. Fortunato sounds to me like an arrogant, self-important jagoff.

  3. #33
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    Refusal to turn engine off ?? endangers officer?

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    If the article is indeed correct,I dont believe that the agent was justified in escalating the situation by using pepper spray.

    The use of force should only be applied when nothing else will work.

    That being said, if I had used spray just because someone asked me to be polite, when the Sheriff was told of it,I would have been at the very least disciplined or fired on the spot for use of excessive force.

    Officers need to be thicker skinned and they shouldnt let minor things like drivers with pet peeves to be annoying them.

    It would seem that just a little bit of communication skills would have been great here. It dosent take that much to make people understand, even total idiots can usally be made to understand that it is within their best interests to comply.
    Hot guns, I fully agree with you about the need to be courteous and polite and deescalate when dealing with idiots.

    However, in this instance, I think the refusal to turn the engine off posed a real threat that the guy would gun it and take off. Or worse, the office might get hurt if he tried to reach in and turn it off.

    I think a reasonable and lawful order was given, an idiotic reply was given, and though I would prefer that OC had not been used and the officer simply said "please," we don't know the body language that was going on and the vibes the officer was getting.

    This is one case where I'm going to give the border patrol guy the benefit of the doubt. I hope he didn't get in trouble.

    Can you just imagine the news stories if the Canadian guy took off and there was a resulting high speed chase that injured someone?

    That engine had to be turned off and it had to be shut down in a way that preserved the officer's safety. At least he didn't taze the guy.

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Hotguns, He wasn't sprayed for asking the agent to be polite, he was sprayed for refusing to obey a lawful order. The agent ordered him to turn off his vehicle. He failed to comply and then tried to change the dynamic and dictate the terms of their interaction. He was warned that if he didn't comply he would be sprayed. He again failed to comply and got sprayed as promised.

    What do you think the Sheriff would say about you spraying me if it were a traffic stop, you instruced me to turn of the engine and exit the vehicle and I told you to do something anatomically improbable? I now tell you that the only way I am shutting off my vehicle is if you go back to your cruiser and turn off the flashing lights (they give me a headache) and put your sidearm in the glove box ( I am scared of guns) before you come back.
    What kind of response should I reasonably expect (after you stop laughing at me that is)?

    There are times an places for negotiations neither my theoretical traffic stop here nor a busy border crossing are the time or the place.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  5. #35
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    What do you think the Sheriff would say about you spraying me if it were a traffic stop, you instruced me to turn of the engine and exit the vehicle and I told you to do something anatomically improbable? I now tell you that the only way I am shutting off my vehicle is if you go back to your cruiser and turn off the flashing lights (they give me a headache) and put your sidearm in the glove box ( I am scared of guns) before you come back.
    He probably would have asked me if I sprayed you while you were sitting there or after I pulled you though the window and bodyslammed you.

    What kind of response should I reasonably expect (after you stop laughing at me that is)?
    I didnt laugh at you. I may have smiled a bit though...

    I'm just saying that there was a breakdown in communication. Anytime you have to use force, that is what it is. I fully understand that the art of communication is lost on some and this guy may have been one of them, but I also know that some people tend to overeact at times...including officers.
    There are times an places for negotiations neither my theoretical traffic stop here nor a busy border crossing are the time or the place.
    Agreed.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  6. #36
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    He wasn't sprayed for his attitude, he was sprayed for refusal to follow a direct lawful order. Last time I checked "Orders" did not include the the word "please". Did the subject have a right to demand respect; yes. Was the Officer short/curt with him; possibly. Did the subject have the right to refuse a direct lawful order from a Law Enforcement Officer; no. As has been said already - pick your battles. I have never had a Canadian Customs/Border Officer even smile at me. Did I make a big deal about it? Nope. These Officers have a tough job and it's just made harder when the idiots come to play.
    "Lawyers, Guns and Money"

  7. #37
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    Here's the ironic thing (that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet): Turning off your engine when pulling into primary inspection is the courteous thing to do, so the agent doing your inspection doesn't have to breathe exhaust for hours on end. When I lived in El Paso there were even signs to this effect. If this guy all about being polite, his engine would have already been off.

    That said, I would say 20% of the customs officers I dealt with were super nice and could make your day after sitting in line for hours- even in the middle of the summer. On the other end, there was the 10% that made you want to stay in Mexico.
    "Lord, help me to be the person my dog thinks I am."

  8. #38
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    I'm amazed that most the folks here think this officers attitude was ok. I'm not saying you think it was proper though some of you may, just that you seem to think its acceptable behavior.

    LEO's need the support of regular citizens. This is not how to get it. If this officer was a city or state patrolman he would probably be fired.

    Michael

  9. #39
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    On a trip back from Europe last year, we cleared customs at Trenton. The non-resident line was insanely long, and we heard Customs Guy A redirect some of the foreigners to resident lines. Then he walked away.

    About 3 minutes later, Customs Guy B saw some non-US passports in the resident line and did his best R. Lee Ermy imitation from Full Metal Jacket. He was yelling at the top of his lungs at these folks and being incredibly condescending. I have NEVER been treated like that in a foreign country and am ashamed that we treat visitors like that.

    As to the "say please"--that could've been my mom!
    I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on Earth.--Steve McQueen

  10. #40
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    When you are not the one being abused, everything seems fine. There was no reason to spray this man. Really there wasn't. Take a deep breath and forget he was being a moron and really think about it. What is so threatening about asking for courtesy? Was it smart? No way was it smart. As of now, despite my best urgings, we have not made poor judgement an offense where it justifies the use of force by our LEO community. Take a deep breath, realize you started the confrontation by being a jerk, and say please. Those people coming into the country aren't your subjects, they are your charges.
    But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
    "Baa."
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  11. #41
    Distinguished Member Array Colin's Avatar
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    The guy was an idiot and had done this before. However as a Federal enforcement Officer myself, when you work on the front lines for your govenment you have the duty to be courteous and professional. I did note that on our trip south last year the US Border guard did do a good job and were pleasent to deal with, but I have met some bad ones as well. I have also heard several US citizens complaining about being given a hard time about guns by our people, sadly most of our guards are summer students/part timers who think they already know everything.

  12. #42
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    I have to go along with "the guy was an idiot".

    The officer was rude. . . so what? File a complaint. But to draw a line in the sand and demand that the guard say please . . . . come on.

    Did the idiot care about anyone waiting behind him? No!

    I figure he was a dweebie little clerk who always got told what to do at work and never got to have any power himself, so he decided to flex his muscle with the Border Patrol and he lost.

    I agree that the officer should have been polite but get real. This was a minor matter until the idiot turned it into more because he had to put the officer in his place.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    LEO's need the support of regular citizens. This is not how to get it. If this officer was a city or state patrolman he would probably be fired.

    Michael
    Not in my county or town.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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