Subway shop robbed with pepper spray. - Page 2

Subway shop robbed with pepper spray.

This is a discussion on Subway shop robbed with pepper spray. within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Janq No. Even as it is a felony there was no immediate jeopardy of life. At the worst localized general discomfort. I ...

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Thread: Subway shop robbed with pepper spray.

  1. #16
    Member Array Glock30SF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    No.

    Even as it is a felony there was no immediate jeopardy of life. At the worst localized general discomfort.
    I personally would not draw on them. Instead I'd be shielding my eyes so as to take a defensive if not offensive position.
    - Janq


    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Seems to be strong-arm robbery vs armed robbery, given the lack of a deadly weapon or immediate threat of us of a deadly weapon. They used a weapon to incapacitate, though that specific weapon, alone, didn't have the power to erase life.

    Since these thugs stopped short of outright threatening of lives, they seem to have stopped well short of A.O.J. -- Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy.

    In the end, though, it's a felony robbery/assault being witnessed and suffered through. Who's to say they're going to play nice-nice and merely stop at felony robbery? Forcible felony, indeed. A reasonable person shouldn't have to think one must legally suffer through whatever's going down unless and until death is being delivered, which by then is too damned late. Many states would fall on the side of eviscerating the good guy for defending against it and refusing to be a felony victim. Sad. Truly sad.

    +1ccw9mm, Janq I would think twice about that mentality. The OC could be the first step to their plan. Don't know about you but I do not have any psychic powers. Do you? I think anyone who put me in a situation like this may just walk out with a lead Sandwich as I am not into playing guessing games with my life!
    “The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.”.... Albert Einstein

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  2. #17
    Ex Member Array JOHNSMITH's Avatar
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    I don't know about that, mace can be deadly in some situations, for some people. I don't see how the situation really changes if they had a baseball bat, or mace. You don't know what else they'll do. I would probably shoot, or at the very least, try to go hand to hand if possible (unlikely and inadvisable).

    Or hit them with my own mace (which would probably be a bad idea considering there are at least two of them... possibly more who are hanging back and pretending to be regular customers).

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2gunken View Post
    Makes you think........

    Subway would be good right now??? I'm thinking BMT.
    Hmm...no thanks...I just had a chicken and lamb Kabob. MMM...beats subway any day!
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
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  4. #19
    Member Array tflhndn's Avatar
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    A little wrinkle in NC law - while we have no provision for the use of lethal force to prevent a forcible felony, we do have the police powers as citizens to detain anyone who has committed a felony in our presence.

    G.S. 15A-404 Detention of offenders by private persons.

    (a) No Arrest; Detention Permitted. - No private person may arrest another person except as provided in G.S. 15A-405 [assisting law enforcement officers in making an arrest.] A private person may detain another person as provided in this section.

    (b) When Detention Permitted. - A private person may detain another person when he has probable cause to believe that the person detained has committed in his presence:

    (1) A felony,

    (2) A breach of the peace,

    (3) A crime involving physical injury to another person, or

    (4) A crime involving theft or destruction of property.

    (c) Manner of Detention. - The detention must be in a reasonable manner considering the offense involved and the circumstances of the detention.

    (d) Period of Detention. - The detention may be no longer than the time required for the earliest of the following:

    (1) The determination that no offense has been committed.

    (2) Surrender of the person detained to a law enforcement officer as provided in subsection (e).

    (e) Surrender to Officer. - A private person who detains another must immediately notify a law enforcement officer and must, unless he releases the person earlier as required by subsection (d), surrender the person detained to the law enforcement officer.
    Does that mean under NC law we could hold the two at gunpoint until police arrive? Or does this simply beg the question of whether lethal force is allowed in the first place?

    (This is not to debate should one, but does one have the right under the law)

  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    This is a tough one. I agree that deadly force is not justified, but I don't like the options. Two bad guys are in control of the situation and have shown themselves capable of committing a felony. Who is to say things won't take a turn for the worse?

  6. #21
    Member Array KralBlbec's Avatar
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    There is also always escalation. They already have rap sheets showing they are well on their way to becoming career criminals and the next time they may very well have a deadly weapon. I couldnt rest at ease reading in the paper that the perps I faced last week who I didnt think were worth detaining killed someone in their latest escapades.

    Its not always the situation right at hand, but what happens next. A lot of trouble could be eliminated if people, citizens and the law, took a harsher response to early signs of criminal behavior rather that saying "its not my business", or "its not that big of a deal". I'd try to stop them some how.

    Someone else also brought up a good point about asthma. Pepper spray CAN be lethal to a lot of people. They can try and keep it low key by using a *nonlethal* weapon, but sooner or later they are going to kill someone even by accident.

  7. #22
    Member Array gilliland87's Avatar
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    Offensive use of chemical agent

    IF someone came into a store and started passing out face fulls of oc spray, I would be hard pressed not to shoot unless they were already running out the door. Have already shown the use of force on others and other weapons are unknown and possible. I would be drawn and issuing commands, up to them to follow or eat some lead instead of a sammich

  8. #23
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    If a scumbag is in the process of perping a felony and in addition to that felony offensively sprays you (an innocent) with OC Spray (an additional felony when used offensively) and you are likely to be temporarily blinded...how can you be certain that the next phase in their felonious operation will not be to knife you in the ribs or bludgeon your head off with an Ax handle in order to eliminate all potential witnesses?

    Just Wondering.
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  9. #24
    Member Array bigiceman's Avatar
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    Okay, so they pepper spray me for no reason. If I just beat the living feces out of them for doing that; would that be escalation?

    Seriously though. They would find an armed man between them and the exit. No doubt, not negotiable. Watching ourselves be victimized is not the same as not being a cop. We are still members of the society and we don't have to sit back and watch and wait just because there are police officers. I also agree that the pepper-spraying felons of today are the bullet-spraying felons of tomorrow. I don't care about the five dollar sandwiches, I care about my community and my neighbors. These vermin that prey upon us are cowing us into submission just because they are willing to act.
    But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
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  10. #25
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock30SF View Post
    +1ccw9mm, Janq I would think twice about that mentality. The OC could be the first step to their plan. Don't know about you but I do not have any psychic powers. Do you? I think anyone who put me in a situation like this may just walk out with a lead Sandwich as I am not into playing guessing games with my life!
    At your suggestion I did think on it twice, over dinner and while putting my kids to bed.

    My thoughts were if I don't see them coming and I'm pepper sprayed in the face and eyes then how am I supposed to see my target _and_ the background? I can't.
    If I did fire and miss or hit a fellow patron now I'm in double trouble.

    Now if I see them coming and they are pepper spraying people again the answer is no. I get out is what I do, if at all possible.

    If I am pepper sprayed and/or I am not able to flee then what I would do is to pull my knife, which I am always carrying, and use that as my defensive measure so as to escape. I don't care about stopping them from taking sandwiches and money.

    Last item in regard to felonies, just because one can is by law allowed to use deadly force to stop a felony in progress does not mean that one should in every instance resort as first choice to use deadly force if it's an available option.
    I am not going to shoot and kill someone over attempted theft of a sandwich or cash register money. I am not going to do that for those reasons singular. Human life, even the life of felonious petty thieves, are worth more than a sandwich and several dollars in a register.
    Nor would I employ deadly force over persons being pepper sprayed even as it might otherwise be toward commission of a secondary crime, if like in this scenario it is an otherwise non-violent crime as this was. I won't even draw. I am not a police.
    And to repeat there is no way I'm going to attempt drawing and firing on targets that I cannot see upon being blinded by chemical spray. I can't even throw a football reliably toward a man sized target when my own sweat drips into my eyes. There is no way I'm going to attempt to shoot a firearm in a confined public store amongst a 360 degree background of potential innocents while wearing a face full of much more uncomfortable and immediately disabling/blinding pepper spray.

    I'd encourage you and others to do same and rethink your own positions on this scenario.
    Unlike a Choose Your Own Adventure book if this were ourselves on the spot real world there would be no do over toward a miss or worst injury of some other person who was not actively involved in being a BG.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #26
    Member Array tflhndn's Avatar
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    While I agree that the use of pepper spray may not rise to a clear cut level of suporting the use of deadly force, would the threat of lethal force be justified:

    That is, would I be legally justified to draw my pistol and threaten the use of lethal force in an attempt to stop the robbery?

    (again, whether to or not is a seperate question, and please note, I am NOT advocating shooting them on the spot, simply whether it is permissible to threaten the use of deadly force?))

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tflhndn View Post
    That is, would I be legally justified to draw my pistol and threaten the use of lethal force in an attempt to stop the robbery?
    As previously suggested, it depends on whether your state statutes brand you "hero" or felon for use of force to stop a violent felony in progress that you witness. It's hard to believe that some states eat their own young, but some do.
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  13. #28
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Last item in regard to felonies, just because one can is by law allowed to use deadly force to stop a felony in progress does not mean that one should in every instance resort as first choice to use deadly force if it's an available option.
    Nobody has said "every instance."

    I'm willing to bet that most folks who feel legally justified and supported in the drawing of a firearm in defense against a multi-attacker forcible felony occurring in front of them simply deem it the safest, sanest approach, as opposed to slowly ratcheting up a use-of-force ladder of available alternative options. As well, presentation doesn't mean use, in the strictest sense. Drawing <> firing. And, merely drawing might well keep the violence from getting on you.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
    The use of deadly force is authorized to stop a forcible felony in Florida. This attack clearly would qualify as such. If I'd have been there, I think that I'd be hard pressed to sit back and let 'em go.
    I would clearly not know if someone only intended to use pepper spray during a robbery, or perhaps pull a knive or gun later.
    I'm not going to put myself into a position to wait and find out.
    If I'm in a store and two individuals run in with masks, and or start spraying customers and jumping counters to empty the cash register...all hell is going to break loose, and fast.

    If I can't exit immediately...back door or rear door...these pepper bandits are putting me into a situation I did not ask for, expect, or intend to sit by and 'see what happens'.
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  15. #30
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    If I understand the rules of using Deadly Force as explained by Mas Ayoob correctly... While the police are allowed to use necessary force in making an arrest, or stopping a person committing a felony, the citizen can only use equal force.

    Even though someone with a severe respiratory disorder can or has died from OC spray, OC spray still is not considered in a legal context as a deadly weapon.

    While a LEO may be justified in employing deadly force against a person using OC spray, or a taser, or other non lethal weapon, it is because as LEO's they have the authority to use the "necessary amount of force" needed to bring that situation to an end.

    As a general rule, citizens are not allowed to employ deadly force against a person with a non-lethal weapon.

    That is my take on the the law and I would not draw on a person attempting to rob a store using OC spray.

    Even though I do not know if they have another weapon or not, I believe that citizens are compelled to wait until an actual deadly weapon is displayed.

    Quote Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
    The use of deadly force is authorized to stop a forcible felony in Florida. This attack clearly would qualify as such. If I'd have been there, I think that I'd be hard pressed to sit back and let 'em go.
    I would have to get a ruling on that from an attorney. I'm not so sure a prosecutor would see this a clearly as you do.

    Obviously the rules of deadly force do vary from State to State and it is imperative and incumbent on each individual ccw holder to know exactly what your State allows or does not allow.
    -Bark'n
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