Poll Should we as CCL holders get involved
This is a discussion on Poll Should we as CCL holders get involved within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; The parameters are not defined well enough for me to make a decision....
View Poll Results: Should we as CCL holders get involved
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Should we CCL holders stay seated do nothing and pretend to be a sheep and only act should our own person welfare be challenged
Should we just shoot the BG without notice, and keep shooting him until the threat is over
Should we order the BG to the floor and if they turns or does anything else other than to assume the position, shoot him over and over again, before he gets a chance to fire at us
March 25th, 2009 03:04 PM
The parameters are not defined well enough for me to make a decision.
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government" - Thomas Jefferson
"The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth." - Stonewall Jackson
March 25th, 2009 03:21 PM
Most of us are not LEOs we have no business getting involved in any event requriing the police unless your life or someone else's is threatened. If someone else is threatened you better be darn sure that person is the good guy. The last thing you want to do is shoot an uncover cop. In the Burger King robbery the permit holder had no business trying to thwart the robbery unless someones life was at stake. Once again we are not LEOs.
March 25th, 2009 04:18 PM
I concur with most of what is said here. Giving a warning is unnecessary because the gunman has opportunity, intent, and ability to cause harm. I would say once you identify the threat, draw and get some cover. Get his attention and command him to STOP (he might run away, he might turn towards, he might acutally stop, etc.), if he doesn't comply shoot to eliminate the threat.
Para Ord SF-45-A
Being a victim is a choice, it doesn't have to be yours - Support Concealed Carry on Campus
March 25th, 2009 04:40 PM
Whenerver one of these discussions starts I always amazed by how many folks say they will not get involved for various. The post in other threads about how great it is when a bg bites the dust because someone else did get involved.
And the scenario's are always interesting to. I have to wonder why some carry at all, after all there are so many risks, and so many what if's.
What if some sleazy looking guy acosts you and stick's a gun in your face and tell you to stop. As he is momentarily distracted, you draw you weapon, shoot and kill him. You then learn that he was an undercover officer who had been told you were a man with a gun.
Sometimes you can just over think to the point you become too parylized with fear and you are of no use to anyone.
March 25th, 2009 05:01 PM
I agree with the posters saying too many variables not addressed.
My thinking is: If a BG comes into a place w/gun drawn and pointing it at "anyone", my life is in jeopardy along with anyone in proximity.
Most local, state and federal laws concur: Pointing a gun at someone in such an aggrevated manner is assault with a deadly weapon. If the BG fires is weapon(even in the air), some even view such an act as attempted murder! (I know this 1st hand.)
So IMO; no warning is necessary! Everyone who is in the proximity of such a crime is in "mortal" danger and the use of deadly force will most likely be accepted. (JMO; I am NOT a lawyer, judge or LEO)
March 25th, 2009 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by CR2008
I'm assuming that any BG with a gun intends to use it, on another innocent person or myself. Not taking a chance that he'll take the money and run. Far too often they don't.
March 25th, 2009 08:15 PM
I'm not "any" store, shop or restaurants security guard, nor am I going to make any attempt to protect their cash register. Period.
However, if the robber does something that threatens "life".... or putting people in the freezer or back room..... then it's a whole new story.
Is he holding the gun toward the floor ? Or, up against someone's head ? There are too many unknown factors to judge what this guy did and why.... nor if it was a good decision or not.
March 25th, 2009 09:10 PM
Think about how long it takes to move a gun from low ready to someone's torso and shoot (their finger is probably already on the trigger). How far along do you let it go before you decide someone's life is in danger? - till the BG is actually pressing the trigger? - till someone's actually shot and you just might be next? Ski mask + gun = bang.
That "shooter ready, stand by, BEEP" should be a sig.
March 26th, 2009 08:26 AM
That's not intervention, that's self-defense. In the case of personal protection, I know who I am, it doesn't matter to me who is threatening me or those in my care for that matter.
Originally Posted by digitalexplr
One doesn't have to be paralyzed with fear or over think anything to make good judgements, and I don't carry a gun to be of "...use to anyone." except me and mine, where mine includes people I know and trust.
Originally Posted by digitalexplr
Given the direction of your comments, I presume you would be satisfied if you intervened and shot a CCWer protecting himself from a deadly threat because you misinterpreted the situation. Kinda like shoot'em all and let the law sort it out?
I'm too young to be this old!
Getting old isn't good for you!
March 26th, 2009 10:57 AM
A young man comes into the local Burger King and points a gun at the cashier, and maybe at me and demands money. Sure he has a gun, but how do I know that he intends me or the clerk any real harm. Maybe he is a nice boy just trying to get the money so his sick kid sister can see a doctor, or get some food to eat. How do I know the gun is even loaded?
The PMY shoots the clerk.
(Note: I say PMY – “Poor Misunderstood Youth” because BG is so pejorative, and I don't like to judge people.)
Well the clerk was only shot in the arm. He will probably live. How do I know the PMY really intended to kill the clerk. He did only shoot him in the arm. Maybe to get his attention. Besides, maybe there was only one bullet in the gun. I wouldn't want to shoot a PMY who is armed with only an unloaded gun. How would that look in court. I should probably act as a good witness and continue to assess the situation.
The PMY shoots the clerk, again COM.
Well the clerk is now dead or appears to be. There isn't anything I can do to save him by taking another life. Maybe both shots were accidental discharges. I should counsel this young man on not un-holstering his gun in a restaurant. There is no reason to believe that this PMY intends me any harm. He has the money. Perhaps at this point he just wants to go home and take care of that sick kid sister. Besides, I still don't know whether there are any more bullets in the gun. I'll just continue to observe.
The PMY goes through the restaurant, methodically having accidental discharges. Many people are killed by these random shots to the head. Doesn't the PMY know to keep the muzzle pointed down range? He's probably never had any proper training. I keep my gun in the holster. I wouldn't want to intervene. Someone might get hurt.
Finally, the PMY turns toward me. I smile and explain to him that he is sweeping me. I really wish he would keep his booger hook off the bang sw
March 26th, 2009 11:09 AM
Originally Posted by Fenris
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
March 26th, 2009 11:40 AM
That's a very narrow and pretty self explanatory situation. But I've given some examples that don't lend themselves so well to CCW intervention. Let's take the very scenario above. You see the situation develop, you shoot the BG and he in turn starts shooting and hits the clerk, swings toward you and incidentally shoots another innocent in the process. How we doin' now?
Let's take an example from a FOF scenario I went through at Gunsite that depicted the very scenario described above. A gunman had a gun pointed at the clerk and was threatening to shoot him. One student's solution to this problem was, as promoted above, to shoot the guy, which he did. The guy turned and shot the guy intervening - what, you were thinking if you shot the BG he couldn't shoot you?
What's worse, the BG's 'tailgunner' put five rounds 'in' the back of the GG that intervened. So how did this do gooder, protect-all-the-innocents-in-my-world fair with his response to a known threat? Well, he died, he left his wife husbandless, and his children fatherless to make out the best they could so he could save a stranger's life.
Still think intervention is a good choice?
Then here's Clint Smith's version of a similar scenario: a guy comes into a resturant and actually starts shooting people. He asks the class what they would do. Well, naturally, most of us respond kind of in a first glance, protect-the-innocents, we'd shoot him. Clint then says here's what I'd do: I'd try to get me and mine to safety if possible. Unless the gunman points in my direction, I won't shoot.
Well needless to say there was an out cry about morals, responsibility, etc. which of course Clint fully expected as he has given this lecture many, many times. His response: My first responsibility is to my family, to provide for them as a husband, father, whatever - not a save the world hero. If I do something that focuses attention to me and mine and causes injury or death to me or them, then I've been irresponsible to my first responsibility. Further suppose I do shoot the guy and kill him dead in a split second and part of the bullet hits a child in the eye and blinds or even kills the child. You will lose everything you own in the following law suit. Your life and your families life will be changed forever. The opportunities you may have had, the opportunities your children may have had are gone forever. All because you intervened on behalf of a stranger. Remember this is Clint Smith's dogma and for that matter Gunsite's dogma as quite evident from their FOF scenarios, not mine - I just adhere to their teachings.
Clint concluded with, why should I risk my life and put my family and possibly their future at risk to intervene for a complete stranger that has the same opportunity to arm himself and protect himself and his family that I do? How can I justify putting myself and my family second to that of a stranger?
While I've been accused of over-thinking, I think it is clear some have not thought enough about this and are envisioning a situation which can be no harm to us or ours. It is easy to do what if's when we can control the outcome, i.e., we shoot the BG and that's that. But what we're not considering at all it seems that he could move just as we break the shot and hence we miss - now we're in an all out gunfight in a public place - you have to watch your background - he does not. You may very well get the hit you want, only to see him return fire and hit you or other people present. You could, in the heat of the moment, due to the motion, adrenaline rush, etc. actually hit an innocent yourself.
I'm too young to be this old!
Getting old isn't good for you!
March 26th, 2009 11:47 AM
Originally Posted by Tangle
March 26th, 2009 01:29 PM
March 26th, 2009 01:45 PM
I only got the permit to protect myself and my family. However, if a guy walks in with the gun already out and is endangering the lives of the several people in the place.
Im gonna take my chances in dropping him DRT.
Im not gonna be herded with a bunch of other people into a back room to be killed. Nope, not going out like that.
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