Poll Should we as CCL holders get involved

This is a discussion on Poll Should we as CCL holders get involved within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I don't understand, where'd we get the 'duty' to defend the life of others? It's my nature to intervene; I'm not sure I could help ...

View Poll Results: Should we as CCL holders get involved

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  • Should we CCL holders stay seated do nothing and pretend to be a sheep and only act should our own person welfare be challenged

    36 24.16%
  • Should we just shoot the BG without notice, and keep shooting him until the threat is over

    74 49.66%
  • Should we order the BG to the floor and if they turns or does anything else other than to assume the position, shoot him over and over again, before he gets a chance to fire at us

    39 26.17%
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Thread: Poll Should we as CCL holders get involved

  1. #31
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    I don't understand, where'd we get the 'duty' to defend the life of others? It's my nature to intervene; I'm not sure I could help myself, but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do or a good choice. There's lots of things that can go wrong when we start shooting in a public place.

    The general response seems to be to assume that everything is going to go our way - we're gonna shoot the BG, we won't miss, he doesn't reflex fire and shoot someone, he doesn't turn and shoot us or someone because we shot him, we don't shoot anyone in the process, he doesn't have a partner that we weren't aware of, and on and on the list goes.

    We'd also feel pretty horrible wondering for the rest of your life if the clerk would still be alive if the BG hadn't shot him/her after you shot him, or if the other innocents that got shot would not have been.
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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array AllAmerican's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Upland man View Post
    From my study into this it seems that you have to at least tell him to put his hands above his head or you will shoot. If you just shoot the liability is to great. If he has his gun on the clerk your shot could make him clinch and shoot that person. In the position that we are assuming the GG is in I would position myself with some space between the BG and myself. With weapon drawn and sight square on his vitals I would yell for him to put hands in the air or I will shoot. If he turned to me at all or did not comply it would be a split second reaction for me to respond with force.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    That's a very narrow and pretty self explanatory situation. But I've given some examples that don't lend themselves so well to CCW intervention. Let's take the very scenario above. You see the situation develop, you shoot the BG and he in turn starts shooting and hits the clerk, swings toward you and incidentally shoots another innocent in the process. How we doin' now?

    Let's take an example from a FOF scenario I went through at Gunsite that depicted the very scenario described above. A gunman had a gun pointed at the clerk and was threatening to shoot him. One student's solution to this problem was, as promoted above, to shoot the guy, which he did. The guy turned and shot the guy intervening - what, you were thinking if you shot the BG he couldn't shoot you?

    What's worse, the BG's 'tailgunner' put five rounds 'in' the back of the GG that intervened. So how did this do gooder, protect-all-the-innocents-in-my-world fair with his response to a known threat? Well, he died, he left his wife husbandless, and his children fatherless to make out the best they could so he could save a stranger's life.

    Still think intervention is a good choice?

    Then here's Clint Smith's version of a similar scenario: a guy comes into a resturant and actually starts shooting people. He asks the class what they would do. Well, naturally, most of us respond kind of in a first glance, protect-the-innocents, we'd shoot him. Clint then says here's what I'd do: I'd try to get me and mine to safety if possible. Unless the gunman points in my direction, I won't shoot.

    Well needless to say there was an out cry about morals, responsibility, etc. which of course Clint fully expected as he has given this lecture many, many times. His response: My first responsibility is to my family, to provide for them as a husband, father, whatever - not a save the world hero. If I do something that focuses attention to me and mine and causes injury or death to me or them, then I've been irresponsible to my first responsibility. Further suppose I do shoot the guy and kill him dead in a split second and part of the bullet hits a child in the eye and blinds or even kills the child. You will lose everything you own in the following law suit. Your life and your families life will be changed forever. The opportunities you may have had, the opportunities your children may have had are gone forever. All because you intervened on behalf of a stranger. Remember this is Clint Smith's dogma and for that matter Gunsite's dogma as quite evident from their FOF scenarios, not mine - I just adhere to their teachings.

    Clint concluded with, why should I risk my life and put my family and possibly their future at risk to intervene for a complete stranger that has the same opportunity to arm himself and protect himself and his family that I do? How can I justify putting myself and my family second to that of a stranger?

    While I've been accused of over-thinking, I think it is clear some have not thought enough about this and are envisioning a situation which can be no harm to us or ours. It is easy to do what if's when we can control the outcome, i.e., we shoot the BG and that's that. But what we're not considering at all it seems that he could move just as we break the shot and hence we miss - now we're in an all out gunfight in a public place - you have to watch your background - he does not. You may very well get the hit you want, only to see him return fire and hit you or other people present. You could, in the heat of the moment, due to the motion, adrenaline rush, etc. actually hit an innocent yourself.

    Excellent. I couldnt agree more.
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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    A young man comes into the local Burger King and points a gun at the cashier, and maybe at me and demands money. Sure he has a gun, but how do I know that he intends me or the clerk any real harm. Maybe he is a nice boy just trying to get the money so his sick kid sister can see a doctor, or get some food to eat. How do I know the gun is even loaded?

    The PMY shoots the clerk.

    (Note: I say PMY – “Poor Misunderstood Youth” because BG is so pejorative, and I don't like to judge people.)

    Well the clerk was only shot in the arm. He will probably live. How do I know the PMY really intended to kill the clerk. He did only shoot him in the arm. Maybe to get his attention. Besides, maybe there was only one bullet in the gun. I wouldn't want to shoot a PMY who is armed with only an unloaded gun. How would that look in court. I should probably act as a good witness and continue to assess the situation.

    The PMY shoots the clerk, again COM.

    Well the clerk is now dead or appears to be. There isn't anything I can do to save him by taking another life. Maybe both shots were accidental discharges. I should counsel this young man on not un-holstering his gun in a restaurant. There is no reason to believe that this PMY intends me any harm. He has the money. Perhaps at this point he just wants to go home and take care of that sick kid sister. Besides, I still don't know whether there are. How do I know the PMY really intended to kill the clerk. He did only shoot him in the arm. Maybe any more bullets in the gun. I'll just continue to observe.

    The PMY goes through the restaurant, methodically having accidental discharges. Many people are killed by these random shots to the head. Doesn't the PMY know to keep the muzzle pointed down range? He's probably never had any proper training. I keep my gun in the holster. I wouldn't want to intervene. Someone might get hurt.

    Finally, the PMY turns toward me. I smile and explain to him that he is sweeping me. I really wish he would keep his booger hook off the bang sw Poor Misunderstood Youth

    so if this was me would you hold me to the same standard after all I'm a PMY that just wants cash for my sick sister, yeah I shot someone but that was an accident my bad.

    so when he finally turns your way you decide to tell him to keep his booger hook of the bang and dont sweep you. thats fine I understand that.

    but the rest, oh please listen to yourself, yeah I understand your point, but there are no PMY, they perfectly understand, thats lawyer talk son.
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  5. #34
    Member Array KralBlbec's Avatar
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    The poll options on this are horribly rigged, like something I would expect from CNN.

    Its like a poll asking :

    Do you still beat your wife?
    A)Yes
    B)No

  6. #35
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    Tangle,

    I 100% agree with your relation per the comments of Clint Smith, who BTW is one of my favorite firearms instructors.

    He's dead on accurate.
    First responsibility goes to ones self, second to ones family,....and The World is far off at third.
    People make their choices and if they choose to not take measures to learn how to defend them self then well that's on them, they made their choice.

    My only exception to this general rule would be toward a child, although their own parent/guardian is tasked to look out for them not me and mine.

    A hard view but it's a hard knock life, so said orphaned Annie.

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  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Tangle,

    I 100% agree with your relation per the comments of Clint Smith, who BTW is one of my favorite firearms instructors.

    He's dead on accurate.
    First responsibility goes to ones self, second to ones family,....and The World is far off at third.
    People make their choices and if they choose to not take measures to learn how to defend them self then well that's on them, they made their choice.

    My only exception to this general rule would be toward a child, although their own parent/guardian is tasked to look out for them not me and mine.

    A hard view but it's a hard knock life, so said orphaned Annie.

    - Janq
    Thanks, Jang.

    It is a hard view, and obviously one that is not understood, and on the surface appears to be a cold and indifferent attitude. I'll readily admit that I'd have a difficult time not intervening in certain situations. And as you mentioned there are some times I would likely intervene. But intervention puts us in a DANGEROUS situation and exposes us and our families to a plethora of undesireable outcomes.
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  8. #37
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    Once his gun comes out and is pointed at someone he is game. I think the key is to act at the right moment, and you won't be able to tell when the right moment is unless you're in the situation.

    Maybe, for the good guy, that was the right moment, maybe not. I believe in "combat patience."

    Hope he recovers soon.
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  9. #38
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    You have to think of your family first. Then you have to consider the laws where you are. In some states the law could be a huge deterrent to helping anyone except family.

    Michael

  10. #39
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    I won't say that I will never get involved in a third party situation!

    However, I am very much aware that it is extremely easy for a Joe citizen CCW holder to get involved in a "mistaken identity" shooting!

    Things would have to be pretty dire and certain if I am going to involve my weapon to intervene in a third party situation.

    I also get pretty sick of those who say that "being a good witness" is the same thing as doing nothing. There are plenty of helpful ways to intervene without pulling your gun and start blasting.

    And I won't say that I wouldn't do that. It would just have to be a pretty compelling situation for me to get involved to that extent.
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  11. #40
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    All three are the 'right answer' for a given, specific situation that requires a prescribed response.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

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  12. #41
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    I started the poll thinking “A” would be my answer. I’d only get involved if the BG turned and headed in my direction. After all, I’m not a LEO and have no responsibility, and no liability insurance, or a Union Attorney should things go sideways and innocent people get shot.

    However, knowing my past encounter with BG’s both as an out of uniform LEO and now as a civilian carrying via a CCL, I almost instinctively get involved.

    For that reason the other two came to mind, and upon deliberation, I cannot say I would give the BG a chance by ordering him on the ground, or just start shooting him, and continue shooting him until the threat was over.

    You also have to realize we do not know all the facts.

    We cannot see the BG’s body movements/ language or hear his words. So we have no idea if this is just a “typical robbery, and all he wants is the money and he’ll leave” or this BG is hyped up on PCP, out of his head crazy, thinks nothing of shooting men, woman and children, and is not going to even feel the bullets that hit him.

    Hard call...

  13. #42
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    After reading the Burger King thread on here, I'm going to say "B." Isn't neutralizing the threat the main priority? Besides, I was told today that "cops really appreciate it when they only have ONE story to deal with."

  14. #43
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    I voted for shoot without notice, but it really depends on the situation. Do you have a clear shot, does the guy look like he might actually shoot someone, etc. Also I would give notice at the same time I was shooting him.

    After reading some of the thread, I really agree with the comment that all three could be right depending on the situation.

    Clint Smith's answer is interesting but with all due respect, it seems too simplistic to me. It is too easy to say I will only take care of me and mine. If its an active shooter, your family isn't there, you have checked your six and you have a clear shot, you then have an opportunity to stop the killing. I hope I would take the shot and keep shooting until the BG is down. On the other hand, its a BK, my family's at the door and can get out without any problem, I take care of my family. Or its a BK, the gunman has his gun pointed at me and is looking at me. I hope I would act like a sheep until his attention is elsewhere because there is no way I am going outdraw him. It good to think about these things ahead of time because I just don't think there is one answer that fits all situations.

    With regard to giving notice, if the situation is one in which I am going to draw my gun, I am not going to "play fair".

  15. #44
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    AS the saying goes, all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.... If I felt that my life, or another's life, was in danger, I would shoot. No warning - just keep pulling the trigger until the threat is ended.
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  16. #45
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    poor options

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