Man shoots bounty hunter

This is a discussion on Man shoots bounty hunter within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Huh? Jang wrote: "After he unlocked much less opened the door the rest is just completely avoidable by the homeowner shenanigans." What shenanigans? He responded ...

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Thread: Man shoots bounty hunter

  1. #16
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    Huh? Jang wrote: "After he unlocked much less opened the door the rest is just completely avoidable by the homeowner shenanigans."

    What shenanigans? He responded to a gun being pointed at him.

    Opening the door, though perhaps unwise, is perfectly lawful. Bounty hunters pointing a gun at a homeowner, someone other than the fugitive--and maybe even the fugitive himself too-- is unlawful. End of story.

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Hopyard,

    The gun was seen and pointed at him secondarily upon he primarily answering and opening his door. To which incredibly he states he would do again to unknown persons knocking on his door at 3:30AM as though that is a normal occurrence in general.

    If he had to start not answered the door or spoken to the BHs through the door _without opening_ it then they would not have been able to point a gun his way through/past the door nor would he have seen they had a gun to start. No one would have been threatened, felt threatened, nor shots relevant to be fired in defense of self.

    Opening the door is lawful, there is no doubt to that. But lawful and sensible are too completely different things.
    It's lawful to walk the streets and back alleys in the middle of the night with $100 in ones held in one hand while wearing a diamond studded Rolex watch on the other. But is that sensible? Most definitely it is not. Street sense.
    There is no question about lawfulness of opening ones door nor upon doing so defending ones self. But is it necessary or wise? That is the question and the answer is nope.

    My point is in that getting to that point of seeing a gun nd thereafter shooting was easily, inexpensively, and completely avoidable. By way of the homeowner choosing to do what was most wise and reasonable especially considering the time frame that this knock at his door occurred. Do not unlock and open your door to strange people talking about strange things at strange hours.
    Defense of self begins at avoidance in the first place and diversion, and far after that ends with applied lethal force as a measure of last and final resort. This homeowner was not jumped in a back alley, not that being in an alley to start a 3:30AM is sensible and wise never mind it not being unlawful.

    Again folks do not be this guy, or you too can find yourself being featured in the news under a caption of win, lose, and draw.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    He needs to watch more "DOG THE BOUNTY HUNTER"they only carry paintball guns LOL since he's a convicted felon,and wear vests.Without actually seeing the fugitive going in the residence they cannot attempt to enter,I would bet the bounty hunters get charged with something
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  5. #19
    New Member Array Jericho's Avatar
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    This happened in Texas where I think the Castle Doctrine holds a lot of water.

  6. #20
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    As to why he opened the door, there are several possibilities, but consider this: We have engrained in our minds to answer a ringing telephone, answer when someone calls our name, and answer a knock at the door. If the resident was woken out of a sound sleep (article doesn't say but at 03:00 or so it's a reasonable assumption) his reflexes might have gotten the best of him. Add to this that late-night visits usually involve someone bringing bad news or looking for help. Now, if he lives in a majorly crime-infested neighborhood, I'll say answering the door was not smart.
    Of course, the (obviously armed) homeowner may have had it with local problems and hey ... he may have figured he could handle whatever the problem was. Apparently, if so, he was right. ;)
    One has to wonder too what the average response time is, and if they were POUNDING on his door he might have wanted to get the door open before they broke it down (costs quite a chunk to replace a good door and he might not be well off financially), and take 'em on his own terms.
    I gotta admit, I'd probably opt for the open the door and confront them choice myself (have, in fact, only t'wasn't bounty hunters or police at the door, as it turned out, LOL). Castle Doctrine, remember, he does not have to wait for them to come INSIDE ... and houses aren't bulletproof.
    Just my $.02

  7. #21
    Member Array bcbrown2's Avatar
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    Even if a criminal signs an agreement with a bondsman which allows for capture using "by any means" doesn't the bounty hunter still have to obey the laws of the land in the performance of that duty? A&E glorifies Dog and his crew's tactics but more often than not we see them busting into homes and performing searches without a search warrant and often without the homeowner's consent. If I had a friend over at my house who had a warrant I was not aware of and had a "recovery agent" try to force his way into my home it's hard to image the outcome would be much different. We don't forfeit our rights just become some "brah" with a mullet shows up with a can of bear spray or, worse, some Johnny Q. Rambo pulls up to my front door with a shotgun and a fake badge.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Many of us living out away from the cities in rural towns still live in the past I suppose. We hear someone at the door in the middle of the night and our first thought is that a neighbor needs help. I realize this is dangerous but its just the way some of us still are.

    In the summer I do my walking at around midnight to 2 a.m. while its cool out. Never feel afraid unless I smell a skunk abouts. I hope it stays this way atleast till i'm no longer around.

    Michael

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    It always amazes me.... place a ringing phone next to someone... they will answer it, most can't resist. Knock on the door, they answer it .

    I don't open my door to anyone I don't know, period. At 3:30 a.m..... I would be on the other side with pistol on hip and shotgun in hand, while my 2 dogs would be letting them know they weren't welcome.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Many of us living out away from the cities in rural towns still live in the past I suppose.
    And see that is the rub mlr1m.
    The past is no longer the present nor the future.

    That may have been the arguable case at some time in the past but today in the present that view is very much not prescient. Not because I say so nor want it to be so, but because present fact and even that of the recent past amongst the last 20 yrs. no longer supports such a view toward a good and wide majority of America without any regard to location be it urban, city, suburban, or rural. I currently live in a rural area and have been cross two states now for a total of 14 yrs. even as I grew up and was raised amongst the city...which also at a time n the far off past was once okay to answer your door without a second thought.

    Welcome to the future which is now.

    If the past were present then there would be no real arguable need for citizens to carry handguns on their person for self protection. We all could, would, and should depend on dialing 911 or a neighbor when there is an emergency.
    And the long arm of the law always gets it's man.

    Clearly for anyone who has not been in a coma since roughly the early 70s has come to know that all of the above views are not only false but are in many ways childlike as well. Utopian aking to how Hollywood and books of fiction and fairtyales portray life and living to be. Not at all real world fact.

    So again if any person comes knocking at your door at such an hour the first and immediate thought one should have is this is nothing but trouble.
    Even if it were a neighbor in need of help taking an extra 10 seconds to visually identify the person as such through windows or a door mounted peephole AND to to challenge them at the still locked and closed door as to who they are and what do they want is not going to cost them the other person(s) on the other side anything at all.
    And if it was by chance the difference for that person between life and death well then they were ded already before they knocked on your door so why open your own door to freely and willfully invite death in your home and amongst your own family? How much sense does that make? None at all at my local rural bank.

    Think it though before you act even as it might be by surprise.
    That active thought of prescience very likely may save your own life, that of your family and guests amongst your home and possibly even that of the neighbor or whom ever else may be knocking unexpected at your door.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    We hear someone at the door in the middle of the night and our first thought is that a neighbor needs help. I realize this is dangerous but its just the way some of us still are.
    I'm still that way, too! Good to see there are plenty to go around.

    But, here's the thing: that first thought need not be blind. Nothing in the whole panoply of courteous behavior demands that any response be blind and mindless.

    While my first thought is that it's a neighbor, my second thought comes immediately after, and I realize that taking 5-10secs to positively ID someone PRIOR to opening the door and allowing my security perimeter to be breached isn't gonna kill anyone.

    However, the opposite is the ugly part. My failure to correctly ID someone when it DOES matter is entirely likely to reap untold damages upon me and mine. At 2am, the person at the door can afford to wait an extra 5secs, if that's going to mean the difference between my succumbing or withstanding an attack (should that be the case, this 2am).

    Checking your doors to ensure they're locked, before heading to bed, isn't discourteous. It's highly sane and rational, given what is possible. It quickly becomes a part of the routine and what you do in those situations.

    Likewise, checking your doors to ensure the caller is known isn't discourteous. It also quickly becomes a part of the routine and what you do in those situations. It also quickly becomes known that that's how you handle arrivals at the door.

    Small price to pay, and it's not one bit discourteous or socially failing to do so. It can easily coexist with neighborly relations, apple pie / bbq, and playin' with the neighborhood kids. You've just got to do it right and make no big deal of it ... like treating the carrying of a firearm no differently than carrying the wallet.

    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    In the summer I do my walking at around midnight to 2 a.m. while its cool out. Never feel afraid unless I smell a skunk abouts.
    It's not about fear. I, too, do not feel afraid ... even being out at 2am. However, I am circumspect, and I am aware that things can be other than they seem. A "skunk" can be right around the next corner, ready to "spray." In the hills, it can be a 170 lb mountain lion; in town, a robber; in the country, a skunk. Same difference ... same circumspection and situational awareness. No fear.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by raevan View Post
    After dark I don't open the door for anyone unless I am expecting them.
    He should have called 911 and waited for police to arrive. If they broke in then defend himself with 911 on the phone.
    So anytime someone knocks on my door, and it dark, or I am not expecting anyone, I should call 911.

    We all laugh at the 911 caller that is mad because their order at McDonald's is screwed up, but we call 911 when someone knocks on the door.

    I just don't know what to say.


    Z
    An ounce of lead is worth 200lbs of cop.

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    I have a porch light and a peep hole in my exterior doors,If I don't know you I'm not opening the door,If you need help then I will call somebody for you,but I'm not opening my door
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SleepingZ View Post
    We all laugh at the 911 caller that is mad because their order at McDonald's is screwed up ...
    Such a person deserves to be laughed at, and fined for the waste of resources.

    ... but we call 911 when someone knocks on the door.
    If it's clearly an emergency requiring cavalry, sure. Who wouldn't? (But, it's not like folks feel much need to call 911 because of a knock on the door. Not many are as knee-jerk fearful as your statement implies.)
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  15. #29
    mkh
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    Distinguished Member Array mkh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Huh? Jang wrote: "After he unlocked much less opened the door the rest is just completely avoidable by the homeowner shenanigans."

    What shenanigans? He responded to a gun being pointed at him.

    Opening the door, though perhaps unwise, is perfectly lawful. Bounty hunters pointing a gun at a homeowner, someone other than the fugitive--and maybe even the fugitive himself too-- is unlawful. End of story.
    I thought the second rule of firearm safety was to not point the gun at anything you aren't going to shoot.

    Not arguing the legality or dangers of being a bounty hunter but pointing the gun at someone answering your knock on the door at 3:00 AM is asking for trouble.

  16. #30
    Ex Member Array United93's Avatar
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    I would NOT have opened the door, or even gotten near it. 'Make them come to me, then make them sorry they did' is my strategy for HD. You know the ground, take advantage of that.

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