Tragic: Boy finds forgotten gun, accidentally shoots self in head

This is a discussion on Tragic: Boy finds forgotten gun, accidentally shoots self in head within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by OMEGA2669 education saves lives Yes! Those words are not uttered enough....

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Thread: Tragic: Boy finds forgotten gun, accidentally shoots self in head

  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OMEGA2669 View Post
    education saves lives
    Yes! Those words are not uttered enough.

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsee11789 View Post
    A 12 Year old should know better.
    There are 24, 36, and 48 yr. olds who don't know better.
    The internets is full of video and images of these more aged people doing plainly stupid stuff with firearms, without thinking.
    It's ridiculousness like this and the following image that fuels antis desire to further restrict if not altogether remove our gun rights. Simply because people cannot find it in them self to act right, act reasonably, and take adult responsibility for their actions _and_ inaction.



    Education is a layer on top of which the foundation lies properly securing firearms and ammunition from use by unauthorized users.
    This is and has been the basic tenant of _modern_ firearm safety for decades now, and should be for the future.

    NRA Gun Safety Rules

    When using or storing a gun, always follow these NRA rules:

    Store guns so they are not accessible to unauthorized persons.
    Many factors must be considered when deciding where and how to store guns. A person's particular situation will be a major part of the consideration. Dozens of gun storage devices, as well as locking devices that attach directly to the gun, are available. However, mechanical locking devices, like the mechanical safeties built into guns, can fail and should not be used as a substitute for safe gun handling and the observance of all gun safety rules.

    http://www.nrahq.org/education/guide.asp
    There is no excuse for this type of negilence and that includes 'education' or lack there of by the adult parent and guardians never mind the child, who in his own home should not have to be educated in order to live there safely per the responsibility of the adult parent and guardian to provide a reasonably safe living environment.
    A firearm with live ammunition "forgotten" to be stored in a box in a closet is neither safe nor reasonable.

    Parents and adult persons need to properly secure their firearms which means lock them up if they are not in use as carried on your body or under your direct supervision.
    Stored in a box in the closet is neither and for that due to parental and adult ignorance yet another child suffered and will suffer for the rest of his days if he survives.

    This was completely avoidable, and very much should have been, without any regard to education of the child.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  4. #33
    Ex Member Array PNUT's Avatar
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    this is sad all around. You'd hope that a 12 year old would know better , but then again his family forgot that they even had a gun. Guns and gun safety especially ,were obviously not dinner table topics at that house. If you're going to have kids and guns it's imperative to educate them. A locked up gun is useless .
    Bunny also made a good point about the kid being home alone for a couple of hours, in some states a 12 year old kid can't legally be left home alone, and with good reason.

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    PNUT,

    How exactly is a locked up gun "useless"? :huh:

    A child playing with a locked up gun is a child that does not and cannot shoot itself or it's sibling/friend also near by playing with a locked up gun, unbeknown to their adult parent/guardian.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  6. #35
    Ex Member Array PNUT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    PNUT,

    How exactly is a locked up gun "useless"? :huh:

    A child playing with a locked up gun is a child that does not and cannot shoot itself or it's sibling/friend also near by playing with a locked up gun, unbeknown to their adult parent/guardian.

    - Janq
    When your door gets kicked in during a home invasion, go get your locked up gun, them let me know how it works out ,if you're still alive.If the BG's decide to give you the time to go get your weapons,which I highly doubt. I'd rather have mine ready to go and my children taught to (A) leave it alone (B) never point it at anyone . It's a personal choice, I'm not going to keep unloaded or disabled weapons,they may as well be bricks.
    I have to blame the actor here, the kid. He's lucky that he made it to 12 in this world if he didn't realize that all heck comes out of the barrel of a gun when you pull the trigger, just like on , video games, and movies. If you don't teach your kids and they don't listen to you, there are bigger issues than gun locks can solve.
    We're assuming that this was an accident, it may have been a suicide attempt.

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNUT View Post
    When your door gets kicked in during a home invasion, go get your locked up gun, them let me know how it works out ,if you're still alive.If the BG's decide to give you the time to go get your weapons,which I highly doubt...
    I figured that's what you were thinking, and it's a specious commentary of view.

    In this specific case the firearm clearly was not being used nor by caliber alone (.25 ACP) intended for home defense. Further it's a firearm the parents state they "forgot" about.

    For a self defense or home defense handgun wear it on your body.
    When not worn on your body, lock it up.
    If said handgun is to be kept at the ready someplace then do so within a container that can be secured but accessed very quickly of which the market is full of solutions to that end. The choice availability for as much is wide and deep.
    Same goes for longarms too be it a shot gun or rifle.

    Do:
    * For self defense and home defense wear your handgun on your body in and around your house.
    That is legal in all 50 states and now the District of Columbia too.

    * If you have a long gun as your home defense weapon (shotgun or rifle) then when you are actually home and are sleeping in your bedroom or what ever other room you are sleeping in then keep the firearm as at the ready condition within arms length of you. Though preferably in a place if there are small children around that is out of their direct access possibility especially if you wake after they do and/or are a heavy sleeper.

    Do not do:
    * Do not leave handguns sitting in your night stand, the sock drawer, or any other drawer and in closets too or under mattresses or behind sofa pillows and other such 'hiding places' perpetually whether you are home or not.

    * Do not leave longguns behind doors and under beds perpetually unsecured whether you are home or not.

    * Do not leave any firearm unattended and unsecured when you are not home (laziness!) for the simple and double reason that even if you do not have kids burglars will find your firearms and they will take them to the streets to be sold and used in crime against people like _you_, me, and we the people. This alone is a no brainer and is well known as being a primary source of firearms for the blackmarket; theft of lawfully owned firearms from non-commercial residential properties.

    * Do not leave any firearms out unattended when you are not home while a child or children may be within your home.
    Kids do things and get in to stuff and outside of the most educated and acclimated of children the vast majority of the norm of children be they so called educated about guns or not find firearms and ammunition to be an emotional draw. Hell adults (18 and over) are the same way for that matter.

    There is no good reason to not have your firearms locked up if and when you have children around your home.
    The idea that keeping guns, loaded guns at that, around the house in random locations left there to be forgotten (!) muchless openly accessible to children is how these stories come up weekly of children shooting themself.

    Further the idea that possibly this could be a suicide is specious as well. So if the kid had purposefully wanted to commit suicide for some very odd reason then having this firearm around the house unsecured is okay and the end result not so bad?
    Of course not.

    Never mind that placing guns to ones head and pulling of triggers as folks see depicted on TV is a pretty common play item that not just children but full grown not actually intending to kill themselves adult do and portray themselves as too which also can very easily be seen by videos and pics as posted on the internet, by fools.

    If your home has a single firearm in it and it is used on occasion for Self defense (person) and/or home defense (residence) then that's great. Wear it on your person or in the immediate moment keep it near by at hand. When you are no longer planning to be near by and keeping the firearm at hand then either place it on your body or take it in hand and bring it with you, or elsewise lock it up. Simple. This applies be it a handgun or a longgun...regardless of what ever second degree and layer of 'education' your specific child or children might have be they your own or those of a relative.

    Not a week goes by where some child does not find within their home a firearm and wind up shooting them self or a sibling if not a visiting friend. And those are just the items that an actual shooting has occurred and to which a media report was made. We'll never know the number of unreported events and close calls that have and do go on daily to this end.

    Lock up your guns, if they are not under your direct command and /or in active possessive use _and_ monitor by you or some other adult within the home.
    Nobody is advising to put on a lock on your active immediate intent home defense/self defense applicable firearm. Keep that one unlocked as it is in immediate use and lock up the rest as in others if you have more than one.

    Stop making excuses and think of your childrens best interests on the whole not in the narrow specific of what if Deebo breaks in to my house and...

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #37
    Ex Member Array PNUT's Avatar
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    Stop making excuses and think of your childrens best interests on the whole not in the narrow specific of what if Deebo breaks in to my house and...

    - Janq


    If Craig can take Deebo mano a mano, I can too ! lol.
    I understand what you're saying. When I was a kid my father was away a lot on business, out of the country and for extended periods, we lived in L.A. and had no family nearby,my mom, two little kids, two Dobermans and that's it. BG's then and now seek out and target people in the Jewelry business for home invasions. I was raised in a house with guns, loaded and available, we were taught how to use them, what they could do and to never touch them unless we had to. It worked for us. I prefer education over locks, you don't, to each his own.

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    @ Craig and Deebo

    I very much support education.
    I'm a volunteer firearms educator and instructor.

    Let me share with you an event that real world happened to me this past Sunday, in my MA Basic Hunters Education class.

    We had a family of three show up, amongst many other children with and without parents, including a dad roughly ten years my senior who is an experienced life long hunter and firearms sportsman. He brought along his 15 yr.old daughter and his 12 yr. old son.
    He at home has been teaching them about firearms and hunting for years on his own. They finally as children decided that this year they would like to go out and give a tray at hunting turkey. Dad required that they go through a proper education program before doing so and thus they randomly wound up assigned to my crew of instructors.

    FFWD through a full day of instruction on Saturday covering in gross details the ten rules of firearms handling, having watched two detailed videos toward proper firearm handling and how accidents in or about them home occur as in specific regard to children with unauthorized use of firearms. More direct conversation with me and their dad on this throughout the day Saturday.
    If I had to say any child were squared away and a sure bet to be safe persons it would have been to my own mind these two. I told the father that too to his face in front of his children. He was and is doing what is IMHO an _excellent_ job as based on results I'd seen and heard from his students mouths. Total class time was just inside 9 hrs. We are state mandated to provide a minimum of 12 hrs. instruction though most often our classes are 14 to 16 hrs. in total duration.

    Sunday comes along and we in the morning watch yet another DVD video to refresh student memories as to safety and proper handling of firearms be they at home, at a range, or in the field traversing ground (not actively hunting), or in the active action of hunting be it sitting in a tree stand or as in pursuit on foot stalking game.
    This family choose both days to sit up front in the very first row of seats. They missed nothing at all and were attentive. Other instructors noted same as I did and amongst ourselves we all were very excited about this family in specific. Exactly the kind of children and parenting we want to see as in relation to our passion.

    After the movie we split the class into thirds to cover three hands on areas of instruction.

    1) Firearms handling and coverage of how the various actions as discussed in class prior actually real world appear as related to handling real firearms and facsimile ammunition. The firearms all are dedicated to instruction and have had their firing pins removed by our on staff professional master gunsmith who is a S&W employee (the whole squad is a S&W factory sponsored team of instructors). The firearms are _always_ checked for safety by two other instructors prior to being brought into the classroom.
    Our facsimile ammo are real casings fitted with real projectiles (bullet and shot) that are missing their primer, powder, and wadding as with the shotgun shells. All commercially sourced from Brownells. Also these are checked prior to being brought into class. I checked them myself...individually before and after classroom use some 50 something rounds by hand.
    So the family happened to be seated at table one and started with station one covering the actions of a firearm as well as the many various and proper ways of handling a firearm when in relation to other persons amongst your 360 degree on the horizontal surroundings.
    Second station they hit was 'Zones of Fire' where they used Crossman BB rifles converted by Crossman to be non-functional to fire a projectile and instead project a red laser beam upon trigger press.

    The third and final station was my own in which I covered the various methods toward traversing uneven ground and in doing so negotiating barriers such as a fence (we have a real fence section built for this demo) or some other land hazard interference.
    After showing them the right way to negotiate the fence and exchange a firearm with ones hunting partner I ask for a student volunteer to demonstrate and repeat same with me directly.
    The teen girl from this family steps forward immediately. I'm inside so jazzed for these kids and their dad who is my hero type dad as pro-2A fathers go.

    I transfer possession of my demo firearm, Crossman laser rifle, to the girl and do so slowly so as to show her and the students watching the _proper_ way to do so. She takes receipt of the rifle and there after acknowledges receipt to me with a "Thank You" statement exactly as we teach in class. All is going well until...
    As I am standing there facing the student crowd at large discussing a secondary item she standing there back to the class suddenly and abruptly turns clock wise toward the class to speak to her brother.
    In doing so I in the corner of my eye see that barrel coming around just about ready to sweep on to and cover my chest. Without conscious thought my right arm instantly rises and my right hand catches the foregrip of the rifle and grasps it tight stopping her forward movement.

    Silent pause, as the girl then turns to look at me and I can see her face flushing bright red. She says that she thought she heard her brother saying something to her and she only wanted to turn to see what he said and ___"forgot"___ about the gun being in her hand and the barrels location, which prior had been safe and now was not going to be. She apologized right there and before I could get a word out I swear I thought she was going to start crying.

    I told her it was okay. This is the time to make mistakes and errors rather than when in the field, at a range or at home.
    I then made use of that immediate instance to address the class and state it takes just a momentary lapse of thinking like that to wind up in the newspaper reported as an 'accident'. Which is why when it comes to firearms we must always have on our thinking caps be we around them or in manual possession of one.
    We continued the session and afterward I talked to the girl along with her dad and brother listening and reassured her that all was okay this time. But to take that incident as a life lesson to never forget you just cannot afford to "forget". The cost can be a persons life.

    The family passed and I did not grade tests as I was proctoring for another student but I was told by a fellow instructor that they all in that family passes with 93 or better. I wish them the absolute best in my heart. Those kids have an awesome dad.

    And this is why I say lock up your stuff.
    Education is excellent and IMHO necessary. But it cannot be absolutely depended on, with children. It just can not. Not even with super parents and wholesome good kids. Not 100% of the time for all in all instances.
    Education is a layer to build up a foundation. The foundation though being what is 100% sure to prevent instances like this from occurring and that is a firearm being either stored and locked in a proper and durable metal safe (not a wood and glass cabinet or on a wooden rack) or if left out at a minimum the actions kept open the firearm cable locked through the action so as to make it impossible to load the firearm, close it's action, and/or discharge a shot.
    I hand these cables out to every class but this last one and that was only because I could not get enough locks in time for class from the NSSF.

    I don't mean nor intend to be persnickety or a jerk about this.
    I just want people in general and children in specific to be safe within their home or at that of their neighbors, friends, and relatives considering that per the NRA itself one in three US residences has at least one firearm in it. One in three!
    Clearly as based on children being shot results alone education is not enough in a functional way never mind all of the millions of parents out there with guns who for what ever personal reason or issue will not them self take the time to be 'educated' never mind send them self and their kid to some person like me to be come properly educated and trained in same and much more. Which BTW like a cable lock is also available for free if only one takes the time to ask.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  10. #39
    Ex Member Array PNUT's Avatar
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    Ok Janq, you convinced me. If I ever have kids again I'll lock up whatever I'm not carrying at the time. Better safe than sorry.

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    I have just one thing to say,
    There should NEVER be a "forgotten" gun, loaded OR unloaded. I say this in general whether a child is there or not.
    A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
    Susan B. Anthony
    A armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one has to back it up with his life.
    Robert Heinlein

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