Defending their turf...

This is a discussion on Defending their turf... within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; ...not with firearms, but still shows good guys taking out BGs with whatever skills they have. http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?s=4390950 Why store cashiers and managers defend the register ...

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    Defending their turf...

    ...not with firearms, but still shows good guys taking out BGs with whatever skills they have.

    http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?s=4390950

    Why store cashiers and managers defend the register
    By Patrick Center

    (Grand Rapids, January 20, 2006, 7:53 p.m.) The surveillance video at a Grand Rapids grocery store, La Mexicana, shows a man standing behind a cashier demanding cash. With coins and bills dropping to the floor, this is a hold-up in the making.

    When store owner, Miguel Perez, witnessed it live from one of his security monitors, he took matters into his own hands, leveling the would-be bandit with a carpenters' level.

    "I just hit him in the back of the neck and he just fall down until the police arrived," explained Perez.

    The suspect, Gerald Lamb, who was knocked unconscious, was charged Friday with felony charges.

    But why would the store owner take the law into his own hands?

    "These things can turn ugly in a hurry," said Terry Fisk, Director of Grand Valley State University's School of Criminal Justice.

    Fisk warns most assailants carry weapons. "If they're angry enough, desperate enough, high enough, they're going to respond in kind to any kind of challenge to what they came in there to do."

    Fisk tells 24 Hour News 8 most clerks know the odds. Yet, last weekend at the Party Line store on Plainfield Road, after being robbed twice in one week, the owner whacked a convenience store bandit silly with a heavy-duty shovel.

    "We don't advocate that people take on people that are robbing their store. It's much safer for them to give the money up," advises Lieutenant Matt Janiskee of the Grand Rapids Police Department.

    While that may be true, within the last month store clerks nationwide have been caught on tape defending their turf.

    A Bethlehem, Pennsylvania gas station clerk defended his register by taking swings at a knife-wielding thief using a baseball bat.

    A Modesto, California Quick Stop manager was also held-up at knifepoint. The manager, a black belt in six martial arts, went into attack stance, gave chase to the would-be robber, and with a few high kicks, the assailant tumbled out into the parking lot.

    Why are these clerks taking the law into their own hands?

    "There's a degree of frustration," explained Fisk. He told us in just about every one of these cases the clerks have been held-up multiple times. "I think it's just often a sense of enough-is-enough of this and I'm going to do something."

    However, sometimes doing something that seems so right can turn out to be so wrong.

    Fisk tells us there are a number of cases where assailants have sued store owners after being attacked.

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    Good for him!! These two things below yank my chain - badly!!!
    But why would the store owner take the law into his own hands?
    This is such a tired statement - it is meaningless. Defence is the name of the game and no cop is likely to be there just when need! That statement also forgets how many situations can occur where the BG does not leave without having injured or killed some innocent.

    I am tired of the ''give 'em the money and they'll go'' broken record - geez!
    Fisk tells us there are a number of cases where assailants have sued store owners after being attacked.
    Oh right - BG feels a victim - OMG it is pathetic - let's hear it for BG's rights eh!

    Enough - my blood pressure is already elevated!!
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    This is such a tired statement - it is meaningless. Defence is the name of the game and no cop is likely to be there just when need! That statement also forgets how many situations can occur where the BG does not leave without having injured or killed some innocent.

    I am tired of the ''give 'em the money and they'll go'' broken record - geez!
    Oh right - BG feels a victim - OMG it is pathetic - let's hear it for BG's rights eh!

    Enough - my blood pressure is already elevated!!
    This past weekend a local fast food joint was robbed. The clerk did what the BG told her to do and he still shot her. Only a superficial wound to the hand, but still, . . . . . These bleeding hearts give me a pain as they made it sound like the BG was the victim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bentcursor
    Fisk tells us there are a number of cases where assailants have sued store owners after being attacked.
    Lawyers that take those cased should be disbarred, and any Judge that allows a case like that should get kicked off the bench!
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

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    It seems to me that those who raise the potential risk of responding to life-threatening situations, should devote equal attention to the potentially greater risk of not responding - and let those who hear them or read their words decide for themselves.

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    The whole "...give them the money and they will go away..." thing just encourages the BG's to do it again when they run out of money.

    I totally identify with the clerks "taking matters into their own hands".

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    Quote Originally Posted by rstickle
    Lawyers that take those cased should be disbarred, and any Judge that allows a case like that should get kicked off the bench!
    I think your comment was in jest, but......our country has a robust system of protections......

    Our legal system is based on checks and balances. Disbarring an attorney for defending an individual accused of a crime, however heinous, who has a right to an effective defense, should not acceptable in our society. Disbarring them for breach of confidentiality, felony acts, etc. - yes! Allowing perpetrators to recover damages for injuries received from a victim during the commission of a crime is ludicrous - but how successful are such cases? Are they ever? Does the attorney ever really get a "pay day"? But don't disbar them for doing their jobs - however distasteful.

    Judges can be pulled from the bench by either election or impeachment, dependent on the bench. There's a bunch of bad ones out there, as well as a lot of good ones. We just need to figure out which, and start pressing for their legal removal.

    Sorry for the

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock and Glock
    Allowing perpetrators to recover damages for injuries received from a victim during the commission of a crime is ludicrous - but how successful are such cases? Are they ever? Does the attorney ever really get a "pay day"? But don't disbar them for doing their jobs - however distasteful.
    The problem is not whether the cases are successful or whether the attorneys get a pay day. As an aside they must be getting a pay day or they would not continue to take this type of case. The real problem is that law abiding citizens are forced to spend thousands of dollars to defend themselves from what by every reasonable consideration is a frivilous lawsuit. In reality these cases should be looked at by a competent judge and thrown out as frivilous before the victim is even notified that there is a suit pending. In this way the victim never has to spend one cent and never has to feel any concern. Unfortunately with our current system favoring the criminal victims end up winning the case and losing their savings. Even if the criminal is ordered to pay the victims legal expenses what are the chances of that happening? Even if the criminal does pay will that restore the victim's time and the mental anguish that he suffered?

    Personally I have a $1,000,000 liability rider on my home owners policy that covers me against all types of liability. It will even kick-in when my auto liability is exhausted. My insurance company retains all manner of lawyers to defend me. Like I say it covers me personally. It would even cover me at work. A million dollars is not much of a liability award anymore, but the million would have to come out of the insurance company's coffers. Since I have not given them anywhere near a million dollars and since their lawyers get paid whether they work or not the insurance company is going to fight long and hard to keep from having to pay a claim. I have this for the same kind of reason I have a CCW: I would rather have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
    George

    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by dr_cmg
    Personally I have a $1,000,000 liability rider on my home owners policy that covers me against all types of liability. It will even kick-in when my auto liability is exhausted. My insurance company retains all manner of lawyers to defend me. Like I say it covers me personally. It would even cover me at work. A million dollars is not much of a liability award anymore, but the million would have to come out of the insurance company's coffers. Since I have not given them anywhere near a million dollars and since their lawyers get paid whether they work or not the insurance company is going to fight long and hard to keep from having to pay a claim. I have this for the same kind of reason I have a CCW: I would rather have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
    Is this sort of thing available for every insurance company? Who does your coverage? It might be worthy of a switch! I wonder if they'll insure me in my little Hurricane Alley Haven? We got smacked twice last season and then there was Andrew....
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    Is this sort of thing available for every insurance company? Who does your coverage? It might be worthy of a switch! I wonder if they'll insure me in my little Hurricane Alley Haven? We got smacked twice last season and then there was Andrew....
    I don't know about other insurance companies. My insurance company is USAA (United Services Automobile Association). This company was originally founded to insure military officers. Over the years they have expanded to cover dependents of officers and senior NCOs. They are also my bank and my home mortgage company. I would expect that riders like this are available from most companies. The coverage at work is because I work for someone else. If I owned my own business, I would have to have separate insurance to cover that. I first started using this rider as a renter. USAA offered it as a rider on their renter's insurance. Since they cover so many active duty military they provided this policy because of living in government quarters and moving so much. When I bought my home 10 years ago I just made sure that the liability rider and my all perils computer coverage we included in the home owners policy.

    Hope this helps.
    George

    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

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    Talking I've had USAA since I was a cadet in 1978

    Quote Originally Posted by dr_cmg
    I don't know about other insurance companies. My insurance company is USAA (United Services Automobile Association). This company was originally founded to insure military officers. Over the years they have expanded to cover dependents of officers and senior NCOs. They are also my bank and my home mortgage company. I would expect that riders like this are available from most companies. The coverage at work is because I work for someone else. If I owned my own business, I would have to have separate insurance to cover that. I first started using this rider as a renter. USAA offered it as a rider on their renter's insurance. Since they cover so many active duty military they provided this policy because of living in government quarters and moving so much. When I bought my home 10 years ago I just made sure that the liability rider and my all perils computer coverage we included in the home owners policy.

    Hope this helps.
    Yeah. I have USAA car insurance but they won't and haven't insured any homes in South Florida (or anywhere in the state) since Hurricane Andrew. ~sigh~ I'm a former active duty infantry captain.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    Yeah. I have USAA car insurance but they won't and haven't insured any homes in South Florida (or anywhere in the state) since Hurricane Andrew. ~sigh~ I'm a former active duty infantry captain.
    I didn't know about the not insuring homes in South Florida. I have been with them since May 1972. As we have conversed on other threads you know that I spent some time on active duty. I was an armor 2LT and 1Lt during my 3 years plus of active duty. I then spent a couple of years in the National Guard. I got out of that when they promoted a 1LT to captain who's time in grade total was less than my time in grade on active duty. Actually that was the straw that broke the camel's back. I had already gotten tire of the Mickey Mouse outfit that the unit was and had already determined that it was a good ol' boys network. The only people in this good ol' boys network were the ones who had always been NG and who had served the minimum amout of active duty time. I really missed the real Army. It had its flaws - many of them, but you usually knew where you stood.

    Anyway sorry about the insurance problem. USAA is still covering the people who already had home owners prior to Andrew aren't they?
    George

    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

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    Okay, Please turn of the flame throwers on this one, I am merely playing devils advocate,

    So let me start off by saying That I in no way think that a criminals rights should come before the victims.

    There is a line between when a criminal should have some rights against excessive force. I think that line has shifted (due to lawyers greed) way to far over to the side of ludicrousness. (that must be a word, spell check found it)

    Example: little Johnny grabs a loaf of bread out of the grocery cart and takes off running across the parking lot. The victim then beats the kid into a coma and later dies. Now I know that is far fetched, but you get the point.

    Anything beyond that, I think the victim should be protected from frivolous law suits. It sounds like several states are taking that into account. Florida I believe just passed a (No Retreat) kind of law.

    Until the (no retreat) laws become nationwide, we are kind of stuck.

    As far as “Why would a store clerk take the law into his own hands”
    That serves only one purpose, condemn the store owner for protecting his hard earned property.

    Do they not realize also that today’s common thief is tomorrow’s violent felon.
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
    If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand

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    Lightbulb Change the scenario....

    Quote Originally Posted by 4my son
    Example: little Johnny grabs a loaf of bread out of the grocery cart and takes off running across the parking lot. The victim then beats the kid into a coma and later dies. Now I know that is far fetched, but you get the point.Do they not realize also that today’s common thief is tomorrow’s violent felon.
    Okay first of all, little johnny was never a threat to anybody's LIFE. You still can't kill for PROPERTY in Florida. Second, the moment Little Johnny turned his back and FLED and the "victim" pursued, the ROLES changed. Now the "victim" is the AGGRESSOR and little Johnny is a new "victim." What do you think would happen to a new witness who happened onto little Johnny getting his clock cleaned into a coma but who had NOT seen the first part? The new witness truly believes as any reasonable man might believe that Little Johnny is under violent attack and in danger of being killed and RIGHT NOW...and having a CCW the witness, draws and kills the assailant. What now?

    Also, it is not quite fair to assert that all nonviolent property offenders DO become violent criminals who stalk and prey upon the weak....
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dr_cmg
    I didn't know about the not insuring homes in South Florida. I have been with them since May 1972. As we have conversed on other threads you know that I spent some time on active duty. I was an armor 2LT and 1Lt during my 3 years plus of active duty. I then spent a couple of years in the National Guard. I got out of that when they promoted a 1LT to captain who's time in grade total was less than my time in grade on active duty. Actually that was the straw that broke the camel's back. I had already gotten tire of the Mickey Mouse outfit that the unit was and had already determined that it was a good ol' boys network. The only people in this good ol' boys network were the ones who had always been NG and who had served the minimum amout of active duty time. I really missed the real Army. It had its flaws - many of them, but you usually knew where you stood.

    Anyway sorry about the insurance problem. USAA is still covering the people who already had home owners prior to Andrew aren't they?
    Yeah, I spent a year in the FLARNG. Was the BMO for their HHC here in Miami and I let them send me to JOTC back when we still controlled the Panama Canal and the "Jungle School" run out of Fort Sherman. THAT was fun. But what a bunch of mickey mouse political ki$$ A$$ crap. Hope they shed that attitudes before they spent about two years in Iraq.

    I THINK that old USAA policy Holders in FL were allowed to keep their insurance when USAA bugged out of the sunshine state, but I'm NOT sure.....
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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