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Bad - Shooter arrested for killing man breaking into his car

This is a discussion on Bad - Shooter arrested for killing man breaking into his car within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; WTFO? After reading the article that abandonhope posted, there is still a question over whether this was a clean shoot? There was a gun being ...

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Thread: Bad - Shooter arrested for killing man breaking into his car

  1. #31
    M2
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    WTFO? After reading the article that abandonhope posted, there is still a question over whether this was a clean shoot? There was a gun being used in the commission of a crime, that alone justifies lethal force in response.

    And, in Texas we are allowed to come to the aid of others who are victims of certain crimes...

    PC §9.33. DEFENSE OF THIRD PERSON. A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect a third person if:
    (1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32 in using force or deadly force to protect himself against the unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and
    (2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.
    I've said it before, and I'll say it again...God Bless Texas!

    Cheers! M2


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    WTFO? After reading the article that abandonhope posted, there is still a question over whether this was a clean shoot? There was a gun being used in the commission of a crime, that alone justifies lethal force in response.

    ....
    If there was a gun...


    VCU Student Accused Of Killing Suspected Thief - WRIC Richmond News and Weather -

    Around 4:30 Wednesday afternoon, Richmond Police began investigating a shooting that occurred in the 2100 block of East Leigh Street.

    24-year-old Jamal Holman was found shot, and was transported to VCU Medical Center where he died.

    Police arrested Eric Driver, Jr., 25, of the 500 block of North 22nd Street, and charged him with second degree murder and use of a firearm in the commission of a felony.

    Officials say Holman had broken into a vehicle.

    Driver then confronted Holman, which led to an altercation resulting in the shooting of Holman.


    It's unsure if Holman had a weapon on him at the time.

    Stay with 8News for updates.
    And then this:

    UPDATE: Authorities won&#39t say if Leigh Street shooting victim was armed | Richmond Times-Dispatch

    UPDATE: Authorities won’t say if Leigh Street shooting victim was armed

    STAFF REPORTS
    Published: April 23, 2009

    Authorities today declined to say whether a man shot and killed on East Leigh Street yesterday was armed.
    Police say they arrested a Virginia Commonwealth University student and charged him with fatally shooting Jamall Holman of the 1700 block of Forest Glen Road in Henrico County as Holman was trying to break into a red Honda Civic that belonged to the student’s girlfriend.

    Authorities charged Eric G. Driver, Jr., 25, of the 500 block of North 22nd Street with second-degree murder and use of a firearm in the commission of a felony in the shooting in the 2100 block of East Leigh Street about 4:30 p.m. yesterday.

    Richmond Commonwealth’s Attorney Michael N. Herring said today that Driver was charged with second-degree murder instead of first-degree murder because the shooting was “more of an overreaction” than a premeditated killing.

    Herring said it is illegal to use deadly force to protect property. “If someone’s stealing your property,“ Herring said, “call the police.“

    Holman “had broken into a vehicle” and Driver confronted him, police spokesman James Mercante said in a release. This “led to an altercation resulting in the shooting of Holman,“ Mercante said. The girlfriend was present, but authorities declined to say whether she was in the car or being threatened.

    Police would not say how many times Holman was shot or what weapon was used.

    Driver is being held in the Richmond City Jail pending a bond hearing Monday.

    Victims’ advocate Alicia Rasin, who lives in the area, said she heard the gunshots and thought it was a car backfiring.

    “It was very shocking for me to drive up on it, to see somebody lying there,“ she said.

    Rasin said it was the first time someone has been killed in the area in the more than 50 years that she has been living there.

    “It’s peaceful. The neighbors get along with each other,“ Rasin said. “This was very shocking but very sad. I don’t know what happened, but I feel as a Christian I still have to pray for that young man, pray for them all.“

    Anyone with information is asked to call the Richmond Police Tip Line at (804) 514-TIPS or Metro Richmond Crime Stoppers at (804) 780-1000.

    (Staff writers Melodie Martin and Reed Williams contributed to this report.)
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  3. #33
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    Makes me glad i live in TX.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by matiki View Post
    Too many details are missing.


    +1.

    The only way that I could see it being ok is if the BG attacked the guy and he was scared for his life. He should have just called 911, or gone up and snapped a picture of the guy. Personally, my vehicles are insured, property isn't something that I'd take a persons life for. Apparently the guy didn't explain his actions and reasoning well enough. The dead guy sure wasn't going to contradict him.

  5. #35
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    Maybe the BG looked like he had a gun, or he ditched it. Who knows. Still I'd think manslaughter would be a better charge.

    VA's law are obscure and mainly rooted in case law but retreat is quite advisable if you want to avoid jail time.

    And by the way, excepting isolated enclaves, Richmond is a cess pool.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldshellback View Post
    Not enough info, but dosn't sound like a good shoot to me.

    Driver escalated the situation by confronting the BG......leading up to the BG being shot. A phone call, plate numbers, and direction of travel 'should' be enough. Insurance can handle the rest.
    I am afraid I have to agree. From what I see in the story I would say I would have just called the police with the plates and description since my car has lowjack he wouldn't get far if he was trying to steal it, a window is easily replaced.

    Now... if I were IN the car at the time I would probably have to say that the shooting would be justified, because then your life is in danger as he is breaking into a car you are in, but if you were not in it and just saw it from your home...

    I don't know... not enough information.
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  7. #37
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    Let's change the scenario of this case for the sake of argument.

    It's the same situation, but the BG is still breaking into the GG's car. Here's the change. The BG is holding a knife. He is NOT approaching the GG at all. Does this change the way the GG should have approached this situation?

    IMHO I say yes. Even if the BG is just holding the knife, the GG is NOT in fear of his life. His life is not in jeopardy. Now if the BG were to run toward the GG with the knife the GG would be justified in using deadly force. His life is now in immanent danger.

    But that's my opinion. This goes back to something that was said in my CCW class. You NEVER fire your weapon over a property crime. That's a sure way to felony charge.

    Pardon if I'm repeating something someone else has already stated earlier. The wiser thing he could have done was to dial 911 and let the police handle this situation.
    "Gun control is being able to hit your target."
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  8. #38
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    Way too many unanswered questions, at this point.

    Richmond, VA, I'm assuming.

    Herring said it is illegal to use deadly force to protect property. “If someone’s stealing your property,“ Herring said, “call the police.“
    That depends on the jurisdiction. Generally speaking, in OR that's the case as well. I'm uncertain of VA statutes.

    BUT, the article doesn't indicate the property was the cause of the shooting. It indicates that a subsequent "altercation" was the cause of the shooting:
    Holman “had broken into a vehicle” and Driver confronted him, police spokesman James Mercante said in a release. This “led to an altercation resulting in the shooting of Holman,“ Mercante said. The girlfriend was present, but authorities declined to say whether she was in the car or being threatened.
    Oregon will have my 'nads in a sling if I dare protect my property with lethal force. But, if my life or the life of a loved one is threatened for asking someone to stop stealing my property, if that criminal decides to up the ante and commit an illegal lethal attack on me, I'll defend against that.

    The one critical fact we don't know is simple: did the criminal execute a life-threatening attack on the person, or did the criminal attack the other person (loved one) who was present, and was it THAT attack that the person was defending against? If so, no-bill; if not, then the person has some explaining to do with respect to VA law.

    Either way, this situation is a perfect example of how you can get your rationale handed to you on a plate if you don't navigate the statutes completely righteously AND keep an eye on what a district attorney and police might well do in "fuzzy" cases where the facts aren't crystal clear ... or where political agenda mutes the truth.
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  9. #39
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    A lot of this, I think, depends on the prosecutor. If the prosecutor is anti-gun or up for election and wanting to make a name for himself he'll press charges just to satisfy his own agenda.
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  10. #40
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    If the prosecutor is anti-gun or up for election and wanting to make a name for himself he'll press charges just to satisfy his own agenda.
    Surely you jest, no DA would dream of doing that!!

  11. #41
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matiki View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    WTFO? After reading the article that abandonhope posted, there is still a question over whether this was a clean shoot? There was a gun being used in the commission of a crime, that alone justifies lethal force in response.
    If there was a gun...
    Not quite. The standard is if the shooter reasonably believed the robber had a gun.

  12. #42
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    These two accounts don't square with each other.

    NBC 12
    Witnesses say Eric Driver, 25 and a student at VCU, came out of his home to find his girlfriend being held at gunpoint by a masked thief who was attempting to break into her car. They say he rushed to her defense, shooting the man six times.


    Richmond Times Dispatch
    April 24, 2009
    04/24/09 12:01 AM
    Richmond police say Leigh Street shooting victim was unarmed

    Authorities said a man shot and killed after allegedly breaking into a woman’s car Wednesday in Richmond’s East End appeared to have been unarmed. A Virginia Commonwealth University student was arrested in the shooting death of Jamall Holman, 24, of the 1700 block of Forest Glen Road in Henrico County. Eric G. Driver Jr., 25, of the 500 block of North 22nd Street, was charged with second-degree murder and use of a firearm in the commission of a felony in the shooting in the 2100 block of East Leigh Street on Wednesday about 4:30 p.m.
    If the eyewitness testimony stands he'll be fine regardless of the facts. It establishes reasonableness (he wasn't the only person who thought there was a firearm).

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  13. #43
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    Not quite. The standard is if the shooter reasonably believed the robber had a gun.
    Agreed, but the assertion is that there was a gun so it's automatically justified to escalate to deadly force. I don't mean to come across as saying only the presence of a gun will justify use of force, but to point out that whether or not there was a gun has not been resolved.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  14. #44
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    I just don't think they would of charged 2nd degree murder without some real strong evidence...but it won't be the first time nor the last.

  15. #45
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    IIRC VA law mandates that the taking of human life be charged as such toward the person(s) who did so and that a review in court be made toward the case/situation.

    Various other states have the same position as in specific relation to the taking of human life, without specific regard to justification if any.

    A second degree murder charge is commensurate with such a situation as this where a life is taken, when the state does not otherwise have on the books a charge of 'Justifiable Homicide'.

    Murder by definition is to take a human life.
    To take a life without malice or prejudice is a secondary degree form of murder, which is defined as the taking of a human life.
    Homicide sounds better than 'murder' but effectively they mean the same thing.

    Edit:

    A check of the VA code states the following...



    § 18.2-32. First and second degree murder defined; punishment.

    Murder, other than capital murder, by poison, lying in wait, imprisonment, starving, or by any willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing, or in the commission of, or attempt to commit, arson, rape, forcible sodomy, inanimate or animate object sexual penetration, robbery, burglary or abduction, except as provided in § 18.2-31, is murder of the first degree, punishable as a Class 2 felony.

    All murder other than capital murder and murder in the first degree is murder of the second degree and is punishable by confinement in a state correctional facility for not less than five nor more than forty years.

    (Code 1950, § 18.1-21; 1960, c. 358; 1962, c. 42; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1976, c. 503; 1977, cc. 478, 492; 1981, c. 397; 1993, cc. 463, 490; 1998, c. 281.)

    Source - http://law.justia.com/virginia/codes...0/18.2-32.html

    Additional reading:
    Virginia Chapter 4 - Crimes Against the Person
    Virginia Code § 19.2-11.01 - Crime victim and witness rights
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