Citizens Law Enforcment Unit

This is a discussion on Citizens Law Enforcment Unit within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I think the actual police would be your biggest obstacle. They would never let it happen. Even if (BIG IF HERE) current legislature would allow ...

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Thread: Citizens Law Enforcment Unit

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array WJP9's Avatar
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    I think the actual police would be your biggest obstacle. They would never let it happen. Even if (BIG IF HERE) current legislature would allow it, they would make your life hell for operating in "their" town/city.
    -Bill

    "Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it."

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  3. #17
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    biggest problem is it would take 1 bad apple to make your group/agency look bad. Cops get training , have a command structure and answer to it for a reason.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

  4. #18
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    My experience when I was a reserve was that the police union hated us, individual officers sorta rolled their eyes when talking about reserve officers, but when you showed up and got in a car with them, they had no problem. They almost all thought we were nuts doing it for no pay, but appreciated the backup that a reserve officer provided.

    I don't think that they would look on a "civilian law enforcement unit" favorably at all even if it were allowed. The reserves are sanctioned, organized, trained and managed by the individual police departments. While I think there might be some merit in the idea, I believe such an organization, not under direct control of the police department would be risky....

    The Guardian Angels came to mind immediately as mentioned before and, used as an example, they have not been acccepted very well at all, except for political reasons. If you are interested, you may just want to consider joining the police of Sheriff's reserve.
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

  5. #19
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    Best way to change policies is run for sheriff of the county you are in. They you can implement and changes you want.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array ron8903's Avatar
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    Here in Okeechobee the SO has what they call
    C.O.P.'s
    Citizens on patrol,older men and women that
    uses patrol cars that have a amber light bar,no radio's
    but a issued cell phone to call in suspicious activities.
    No wepons,and they don't get out of there car's.

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chance
    Thats why I was wondering about the citizens arrest thing. Is that a legal myth, or just something that would be target for a dozen lawsuits?
    IIRC, the overall "national" standard is a non-sworn, capable citizen witnessing a felony in progress, has the authority to intervene/detain for the protection of persons and/or property.

  8. #22
    Member Array mcclearypl's Avatar
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    Lord I did not think Okeechobee had a crime problem. C.O.P.S. indead. All joking aside the police would be your worst enemy. For heavens sake here in Florida one of the places a person with a CCW permit is not allowed to carry is a Police or Sheriff's office. I know I work for one and they will not even let us use the range. No chance a plain old person would be allowed to act like the police. Never Happen in POLK County Florida.
    Philip L. McCleary
    Security via CCW
    and a lot of practice
    Dispatchers have the best jobs
    we tell the police where to go and they have
    to do it. Policy manual says so.

    de N4LNE

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array madmike's Avatar
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    Joining an organization like the Neighborhood Crime Watch would be a reasonable thing to do.

    If you want to take it "up a notch," then become an LEO.

    There really isn't much room in between.

    What might be a good "business" today would be an armed, private security force in the Southern border states. No idea how the local laws would apply, but there is more than one state to choose from.

    Basically, if you "wannabe," then don't putz around. "Be!" Apply for an LEO job. Even though my concealed weapons permit was signed by "Charles A. Bronson," it doesn't entitle me to re-enact "Death Wish."

    Mr. Bronson made a note of that when he sent me my permit. I believe him.

    mm
    Political Correctness has now "evolved" into Political Cowardice.

  10. #24
    Member Array PAPACHUCK's Avatar
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    IMHO we all are acting as such by being armed in public. I don't believe you could ever establish a "formal" group of non-LE persons to be "Citizens-On-Patrol", but each of us as law abiding, armed citizens keeping our eyes open and utilizing the legal tools available to us is the closest thing to it. We are many and together we should be able to help keep our streets and neighborhoods safer. If you want to be LE, do it. If not, then get a carry permit and correct mindset, and do your part to watch over our respective communities. Just remember that you are NOT LE and you must act in accordance with the applicable laws.

  11. #25
    New Member Array wkline9@comcast.net's Avatar
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    There is.. they're called Reserve Police Officers. Dont get payed, just free donuts.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    A few links on citizen's arrest:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen's_arrest
    http://www.constitution.org/grossack/arrest.htm
    http://www.ccmagazine.org/edit/staff/vito95.htm

    FWIW, when I was a security officer in Virginia, we had pretty much the same arrest powers as the police (arrest for misdemeanors occuring in our presence, release on summons if possible, felonies get taken to the magistrate and handled by investigative bureau), which really, are an extension of the people's power anyway.

    In Virginia, it would be perfectly legal to have a Neighborhood Patrol, armed. Open carry is legal. I don't think you can call it Neighborhood Watch, don't they as an organization prohibit armed participation?

    Yeah, just call it neighborhood patrol or whatever, don't even pretend to be some kind of LEO assist unit, unless you get Security licensed.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  13. #27
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    When I lived in the Chicago suburbs, and while I was working as a security officer, a friend of mine tried to get me interested in a volunteer organization that was what I'd call semi-professional. They provided a service for FREE to local city governments that requested additional "police" type presence during parades and such.

    I think, IIRC, they were even deputized for short periods of time to keep things on the legal up and up. Their guidelines were pretty strict. I forget the training requirements, but I think it was at least the same that Illinios required for Security officers, which was 20 hours, plus 20 more to operate as armed guards. On top of that, there was also additional training in traffic control and such. And everyone was encouraged to have CPR training. Much of the cost was borne by the individual members. They bought their own uniforms, leather gear and guns.

    I never did join. The security company I worked for had me working too many hours to really be able to have a life outside of work.

    I thought it was an interesting concept though.

    I also recall that in Indiana, many towns have a reserve force made up of volunteers who join the Civil Defense. Yes, the Civil Defense. Sounds funny at first. But I remember in my home town, Marion, they used to have CD Police officers who would ride with the regular city police about every other weekend. I don't know if they still do it, but I wouldn't be too surprised if they did. Again, I have no clue what training those guys had, but they had regular looking uniforms, and they carried guns too.

  14. #28
    New Member Array Migradude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruger P345

    Ive realized that local cops just don't cut it here around Tampa. They are slow to respond and others are just to lazy to do the job right.
    How did you come up with such a general conclusion? Have you ever been an LEO? Seeing that you are only 18, I would guess no. You have failed to take many factors into consideration i.e. personnel shortage, call volumes, lack of funding (a major driving force in law enforcement) etc.. Police officers by and large are a hardworking and professional bunch. Yes, it's true we have bad apples but they are far outnumbered by hard chargers. Try being an LEO first before you label any one of us "not being able to cut it and lazy."

    And you're idea of a civilian law enforcement unit... I wouldn't even go there. Look up the word "liability" for a start.

    I apologize for the rant but I just can't put up with baseless LEO bashing.

    Migradude
    Last edited by Migradude; July 7th, 2006 at 02:36 AM.

  15. #29
    Member Array Agencyman's Avatar
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    Could this alternative somehow be funded and sucessful?

    Quote Originally Posted by P345
    Ok so this may be an odd question but its something I thought up overnight.

    Ive realized that local cops just don't cut it here around Tampa. They are slow to respond and others are just to lazy to do the job right.

    What would the legalities be on starting a Citizens Law Enforcement Division? Training and everything etc....... Just an thought I had. With the time and money it would probably be pretty succesful.
    This sounds expensive. But things that turn police force individuals from disengaged Social Worker towards Peace Officer are a good thing. However, the concept of independent armed policing is doomed from the start. Most of the reasons have already been mentioned.

    Another However!
    I think that much time, effort and money could be spent on a highly public(cized), program that the local cops could be nudged into, and all could make a show of, "Thank goodness this is what we've been waiting for!". If it is fun, on the time-clock, (that would need funding too) , and gives the troops some good P.R. especially positive public image and unit pride, it will do some of what you wish. There are probably a good fraction that would be predisposed to go for it.

    What is that? Hire some of the best trainers, get some positive Local News Videos, get sumpin' cookin'. Reserve guys would be able to get in on this too.

    Smaller PD's can't afford such luxuries; but it seems like, besides some of "us", there are a lot of filthy rich lefties who would love to help out this fine cause. Especially if they were called out in the public eye.

    I watch with amazement the SWAT guys from Chattanooga, (I lived just outside of there for 14 yrs.), competeing with the best in the country. Don't know who put that program together, but they did a hell of a job. Local civilians are aware of the SWAT team's status, and it has even had a good ripple effect through the city P.D.

    So start a reserve, or C.O.P. unit, (Citizen On Patrol), whatever can be made acceptable. I had a Special Deputy commission for years in the Oklahoma City area, back in the days before there were CHP's, it could work in new ways.

    There will always be N.I.H attitudes, and naysayers, but watch the videos from Front Sight. There is much to be gained with the press inadvertently showing a good interaction betwen the LEO's and civilians, while they cover "the training that will help the police do a better job of protecting us".

    B.
    Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.-- Yoda
    G4W is now, be "Vigilant Always" - Bruce, (vet)USASA, NRA, IDPA, USPSA, IHMSA, & USCCA!

  16. #30
    Senior Member Array Joshua M. Smith's Avatar
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    We had a group as older teens (17, 18, 19) we called the Regulators.

    The terms "regulators" and "moderators" were used interchangably in the Old West for private security forces, especially those hired by prosperous ranchers.

    None of us had our handgun permits yet. I personally was armed with two extendable batons (I trained with sticks in martial arts), pepper spray, and a knife. My friend had nunchaku (since made illegal in IN IIRC) and a cell phone. If there was something funky, we'd call the police then boogie out. Never did detain anyone.

    We went where the police didn't. Usually we'd walk into stop'n'robs and give the clerks some company.

    Looking back it was a damn fool thing to do, going armed like that in the middle of the night with potentially illegal weaponry, but some good did come out of it as our calls resulted in arrests.

    We got away with it mainly because we're a small town, I think.

    I would not do it now. Zip ties, cuffs, etc, say "I'm looking for trouble."

    If I were, by some miracle, talked into patrolling the town at this point, it would be in dark shades of dress, cell in hand, gun on hip. Call the calvary and melt into the backround. Be a good witness. Most digital cameras are capable of taking silent movies btw, and I'd have mine on me, lights blacked out.

    Josh <><

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