Multiple Armed Gunmen Open Fire at New Mexico Denny's

This is a discussion on Multiple Armed Gunmen Open Fire at New Mexico Denny's within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by johnsonabq Really? You think it would have been wise to just start firing from your booth as soon as you heard that ...

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Thread: Multiple Armed Gunmen Open Fire at New Mexico Denny's

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsonabq View Post
    Really? You think it would have been wise to just start firing from your booth as soon as you heard that shot from the back of the Denny's?
    Didn't say that. A fight with a gun starts with one. As was shown in this case, the gun in play that gunned down the employee was facing no resistance. If having faced resistance of someone a bit more prepared to resist, the outcome might have changed. Would the others have started firing, had they been armed? In a home invasion, do the supporting cast light up and contribute? Who's to say how any engagement's going to go down.

    My point was simply that the moment the one gun was brought to bear, a fight with a gun had started. That's independent of whether anyone resists, or whether anyone else brings a gun to the fight. The point was simply: the BG's made it happen; the BG's brought the gun; and the BG's started the fight that involved the gun. I was attempting to refute the implication that any a citizen's action at any point thereafter could be considered "starting" anything. Call it semantics if you must, but call it right.

    This is real world stuff here. You just can't go "Dirty Harry" and save the day.
    Every situation is different. Without knowing the players and details such as where they were, how they were moving, whether they controlled the room or were obvious amateurs, whether they appeared to be armed ... it's hard to say what the right course of action is. Until at least some of that is known, though, you're right in reminding folks that the real world isn't some Hollywood fantasy come to life.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  3. #32
    Ex Member Array PNUT's Avatar
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    Gunmen with Multiple Arms ??....sounds like Shiva...at least the cops know where to start.

  4. #33
    Member Array johnsonabq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    My point was simply that the moment the one gun was brought to bear, a fight with a gun had started. That's independent of whether anyone resists, or whether anyone else brings a gun to the fight. The point was simply: the BG's made it happen; the BG's brought the gun; and the BG's started the fight that involved the gun. I was attempting to refute the implication that any a citizen's action at any point thereafter could be considered "starting" anything. Call it semantics if you must, but call it right.
    With all due respect this is how I define gunfight... From Websters

    gunfight
    Function: noun
    Date: 1659
    : a hostile encounter in which antagonists with guns shoot at each other

    This is why I don't consider a gunfight to have started in that situation. Yes it is semantics, but I do believe I'm calling it right. IMHO

    I just feel it's my prime responsibility to protect myself and loved ones from death or great bodily harm. If I determined that they simply wanted the $40 in my wallet let them have it. That's not worth killing anyone for. All four were armed and I see no reason not to think that any form of resistance would have sparked return fire.
    Jeff
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  5. #34
    Member Array schwaa's Avatar
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    They allready showed the willingness to kill one. Now the famous "What else do they have to lose" comes into play. Of course once they take your wallet and rape your wife, they can't go ahead and shoot you right? I mean, you allready gave them what they wanted?

    60 witnesses. Seems ballsy from the begining. If I can, I'm moving to the back door(not where the cook got shot) with Mr. Springfield at the ready.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    Question everything, Learn something, Answer nothing.
    Those who have an answer for everything, have an answer for nothing.

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    New Mexico DPS | Concealed & Carry Information

    - Gov. Bill Richardson, D-NM and CCL holder
    It looks like concealed and open carry is available. I don't need to tell anybody on here that would there have been an armed citizen there the news report might have been written diffferently.

    I also like the fact that the gov is a dem and has his CCL.

    Thanks, Janq

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by miklcolt45 View Post
    Wonder if this changes anybody's response in the thread on how much ammo do you carry?

    200 rounds seems about right in this scenario.
    Wow! How in the heck do you conceal that?

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravisABQ View Post
    M/L thing? what?

    I had an incident, and an officer told me there was a noticible increase in property crimes. This was 6 months ago.
    M/L=martial law.Obama's own chief of staff,a real hardcore fascist imho,has said something to the effect of 'never let a good crisis go to waste'.
    Extremism in the Defense of Liberty is No Vice--Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice is No Virtue. - Senator Barry Goldwater

  9. #38
    Member Array johnsonabq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwaa View Post
    They allready showed the willingness to kill one. Now the famous "What else do they have to lose" comes into play. Of course once they take your wallet and rape your wife, they can't go ahead and shoot you right? I mean, you allready gave them what they wanted?

    60 witnesses. Seems ballsy from the begining. If I can, I'm moving to the back door(not where the cook got shot) with Mr. Springfield at the ready.
    I said they could have my $40. I did not say they can have my wife. I don't know where you got that from. They killed one person who didn't do what they said. The rest of the scene played out without another shot being fired. If they were to start systematically killing all 60+ well then "Katie bar the door" and how many extra mags did I bring?

    Even if I did start a shoot out with these guys and managed to live through it I don't want a law suit on my hands brought by the family of a couple of people who died in the crossfire. I don't want the papers and police saying that 6,7,8 more people died than would have because I thought I was Charles Bronson.

    All I'm saying is if you find yourself in something like this you need a cool head, think clear, and don't do something to make matters worse.
    Jeff
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  10. #39
    Distinguished Member Array PastorPack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lance22 View Post
    Denny's is one step up from the Waffle House, but far beneath the pale of decent society.
    Yes, but an IMPORTANT step!
    God is love (1 John 4:8)

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsonabq View Post
    With all due respect this is how I define gunfight... From Websters

    gunfight
    Function: noun
    Date: 1659
    : a hostile encounter in which antagonists with guns shoot at each other

    This is why I don't consider a gunfight to have started in that situation. Yes it is semantics, but I do believe I'm calling it right. IMHO

    I just feel it's my prime responsibility to protect myself and loved ones from death or great bodily harm. If I determined that they simply wanted the $40 in my wallet let them have it. That's not worth killing anyone for. All four were armed and I see no reason not to think that any form of resistance would have sparked return fire.
    Technically, you are correct. What they did was cold-blooded murder.

    Now, having said that, I don't much care if they get the $40 in my wallet either. But, how do you know when they get done robbing and start killing? How can you tell? Or, when they will start raping?
    There was a thread some time back (a yr or so ago, maybe?) where 2 of the 3 BGs took a woman into a backroom while the other kept the restaurant under control.

    I don't have ESP. I can't read minds. I broke my crystal ball in my last move. A gun pointed at me is assault with a deadly weapon. If there is ANY way I can protect myself, I will. Out the back door with my family? Great. Shoot idiots who started the whole thing? That's okay with me.

    I didn't start it. I will respond the best way I know how. I will pray to God I get the element of surprise. And, I suspect, those left will run.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

  12. #41
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsonabq View Post
    I just feel it's my prime responsibility to protect myself and loved ones from death or great bodily harm.
    Mine, too. Kudos to all who keep that in mind.

    If I determined that they simply wanted the $40 in my wallet let them have it.
    If you guessed, you mean. Guessed, after they've just gunned down someone else.

    That's not worth killing anyone for.
    These four murderers thought it was. They proved it pretty conclusively, wouldn't you say? It's pretty hard to assume they've arrived for a take-out peach pie (and "just" wallets), under those circumstances.

    By any standard, guns were brought to the fight and they were in play, with murder as proof of their intent. Heading out the back is fine, if such a thing existed. Heading sideways out a window, too, if possible before being fired upon with the back turned. But for most folks in most seats, the most likely option is: take it, or resist being taken out. Am not saying it wouldn't sting. Am simply saying that the murderers were in charge of the flow of that situation. There aren't a lot of choices, and the choice would depend on the specifics of the moment. We weren't there.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  13. #42
    Member Array johnsonabq's Avatar
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    Well, we've beat this thing up enough. I think we're basically on the same page. To me, the thing that really complicates things is that there were 4 armed people. If it had only been one... Like you said, "We weren't there." We will never know what we would've done and there's no sense speculating. Again, it was a terrible thing that happened and one person is dead. But I also think it could have been a lot worse.

    Regards and stay safe.
    Jeff
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  14. #43
    Member Array Arisin Wind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miklcolt45 View Post
    Wonder if this changes anybody's response in the thread on how much ammo do you carry?

    200 rounds seems about right in this scenario.
    How many times are you going to miss your target?
    Be not far from me, for trouble is near; For there is none to help. psalm22:11

  15. #44
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    Just saw on FOX...

    at least two of the wastebags (or alleged wastebags)are in custody.
    Extremism in the Defense of Liberty is No Vice--Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice is No Virtue. - Senator Barry Goldwater

  16. #45
    Member Array TravisABQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsonabq View Post
    ....This is real world stuff here. You just can't go "Dirty Harry" and save the day.
    I'm a big fan of minding own business.

    But if you are armed, and trapped like a rat in a can with 4 bad guys shooting guns in the ceiling to get people's attention, you can cower and hope that they pass you by.... but when they demand wallets and find your CCW license, or they search you, and find your weapon, how do you calculate your odds then?

    Off-duty cops have been caught in such situations before, and been promptly executed.

    This isn't a matter of going, "Dirty Harry", and you deserve a thwack for using a such Brady bunch denigration..... it is a matter of taking initiative and doing what the bad guys are NOT expecting.

    They went there for money, yes, but I think they were there more for the thrill...... but they had NO idea they might take return fire.

    You do NOT get the luxury of choosing how many people you are going to have a battle with.

    What you DO control, is reacting quickly with determination and ruthlessness. In any attack, your best chance to reverse the advantage is acting as early as possible. Your chances get worse with every second.

    Or you can sit there with your gun concealed in the small of your back, and your face in your oatmeal. Especially when you do nothing and they kill a couple people, you will treasure this moment for the rest of your life.

    You want a guarantee? We never get those.

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