UGLY: Grandfather Does What Has To Be Done - Lousiville, KY

This is a discussion on UGLY: Grandfather Does What Has To Be Done - Lousiville, KY within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Man shoots, kills intruder during home invasion, intruder turns out to be man's grandson | TOP STORIES | WHAS11.com | News for Louisville, Kentucky Police ...

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Thread: UGLY: Grandfather Does What Has To Be Done - Lousiville, KY

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array CT-Mike's Avatar
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    UGLY: Grandfather Does What Has To Be Done - Lousiville, KY

    Man shoots, kills intruder during home invasion, intruder turns out to be man's grandson | TOP STORIES | WHAS11.com | News for Louisville, Kentucky

    Police say a grandfather shot and killed his own grandson, after the 20-year-old broke into his grandparents' house.



    But WHAS11 News has learned the grandfather didn't realize who he was shooting until it was too late.

    Watch this story

    Metro Police say the grandson came in through a back window wearing a ski mask around 4:30 a.m. on Wednesday. His grandfather woke up and saw the figure with a mask and opened fire.



    The shots killed his grandson, James Michael Keen, 20, who has a record of repeated drug charges. We're also told had stolen from his grandfather in the past.

    James Michael Keen


    Investigators say keen also fired at his grandfather, but they're not sure who shot first. We're told the gun keen had on him at the time was his grandfather's gun, previously stolen from his grandfather's car.



    It appears the motive of this morning's break-in was theft, but since it ended with Keen dead, WHAS11 asked police if his grandfather might face any charges.



    "The facts we have don't lead to that as far as Im concerned-- for an arrest to be made. It seems to me to be a justified homicide, as far as self-defense, but that determination will come from the Commonwealth Attorney's Office, said Lieutenant Barry Wilkerson, LMPD.



    However, Nicholas Joseph Spencer, 20, is under arrest. Police say he was waiting outside in the getaway car for Keen at the time of the shooting.



    A source also tells WHAS11 that Keen's grandfather first figured out it was his grandson just before police arrived, when he pulled the ski mask off Keen.

    Police say that the grandson also fired shots at the homeowner, his grandfather.
    Sad situation, but it sounds like the grandson was a scumbag.
    "The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield, and government to gain ground."

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Array Barbary's Avatar
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    Too bad they published names. Now the little thugs friends know where to go to exact revenge.

  4. #3
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Sad.

    Yet another example of why it is very important to have at hand not just a firearm, but a firearm AND an illumination device so as to be able to SEE your target and confirm it as a threat.



    Being able to see your sights in darkness under such conditions is secondary, not primary.
    Having night sight will not allow you to better see what you are attempting to his, and not miss.
    Having a flashlight in hand though without having night sights will allow you to both see and confirm the target as dangerous and to see your sights if not simply point shoot considering the quarters are close.

    Additionally note that amongst the images there is evidence that at least two rounds as fired by the homeowner exited the perimeter walls of the house and entered public space, which itself covers a second point I've long stood on. Power factor.



    There are people who seriously believe that .308 and larger caliber firearms are proper for HD (!).
    Not adequate, 'proper'. There is a difference.
    If you do not live in a secluded area with no neighbors or sidewalks or public access streets/roads within a mile radius of your home, as a minimum, then yeah okay higher powered cartridges can be gotten away with.
    But the vast majority of people do not live as such regardless of they being city, suburban, or rural in location. Most people have neighbors as within eye distance. As doe this gentleman, whos rounds punched clean holes through his window and wall siding and took a trajectory amongst the outside public world.

    Every round we fire we are responsible for, period.
    No ifs, ands or but but buts.

    Having had a flashlight in hand, along with his firearm, this gentleman would have avoided not one (killing of grandson burglar) but quite possibly two or even three potential woundings/deaths of neighbors if those rounds that exited his home were fired by him and not his grandson.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    Janq - the guy was wearing a ski mask. Flashlight or not, he'd still look like a guy wearing a ski mask, not a grandson there to deliver breakfast in bed.

    I agree having a light is important, I have one at each side of the bed. But I disagree that a light would have stopped the kid from being shot.

    The way I read it, LE had not identified who fired the first shots. So again, if grandson fired first, a light likely wouldn't have prevented the fatality.

    The kid being at home in his own bed rather than ripping off family members would have prevented him from being shot - period.

    Just goes to show, you don't get to pick your relatives.

    P.S. Unless I missed it, I don't believe the article specified that Grandpa DIDN'T have a flashlight?
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

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    Man that's hard, shooting your own family because they broke into your home.

  7. #6
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    TIW,

    The point still stands.

    One does not have to see a persons full face to be able to discern who they are and identify them.
    Be it ski mask, pantyhose, or even sunglasses.

    The article does not state either way that he did or did not have a flashlight.
    Again though the point stands. Get a flashlight and keep it handy by the bed.

    I keep a 3x D cell Maglight and a hand tactical light at my bedside. They do not get touched nor moved and are there just for such occurrences as this. My handguns now have night sights as well, being secondary to the flashlights.

    Agreed very much one cannot choose their relatives. :|
    My own grandfather years ago got caught with exactly this same scenario with my uncle, his grown son, who had been hooked on crack and broke in to my grandfathers home multiple times to steal things for pawn money. One night he did so and my grandfather armed with a shotgun heard a commotion in his basement so he went to investigate. He had the presence of mind to bring along a flashlight (!).
    My uncle he too was wearing a mask and a hooded short as well. But even with that it was clear to my grandfather that it was Richmond...and so he called his name and told him to git.
    Uncle Rich got and the police were called after him thereafter by my grandfather. They caught up with him the next day wearing the same hooded shirt minus the mask.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    Senior Member Array TucAzRider's Avatar
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    I kinda have to go with Tinker's post,. The one things that would have prevented this is the kid at home where he belongs,. Looks justified in my eyes, and one less crook to deal with,. He will not do this again,...

    Be that said, it is sad that this had to happen.. I'm sure the grandpa will have serious remorse about this happening,. Prayers for that family for sure,.

    BTW,.. Janq,.. I have a 4 cell mag by my bed at all times too,. If needed it can be used as a bat for hitting someone,..

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Ditto Tuc.

    That's why I have two.
    The Maglight is a serious impact weapon if not a reserve torch to hand off to my wife.

    My kids (6 and 3) both know and are trained do not touch dads flashlights near the bed. They like my fire extinguishers (kept all around the house including in my bedroom closet) and the hearing protection headset hung on the inside knob of my bedroom closet door are for emergency usage only.
    I swap out the batteries in the MagLight annually even as the light mostly collects dust month to month.

    As to the kid of course and that is a given that if he had not committed the crime in the first place he would not have been shot.
    That goes without saying as is the case with _every_ crime and criminal dead or alive. Clearly though that is not enough as criminals and this kid don't stay in bed at night. So invest in a good flashlight.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    VIP Member Array hogdaddy's Avatar
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    That is BAD Your own grandson ripping you off, But the man had no idea who it was, Just a BG with a mask & GUN
    A Native Floridian = RARE


    IT'S OUR RIGHTS>THEY WANT TO WRONG
    H/D

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    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
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    Janq - glad it worked out for your Grandpa. No doubt it saved him a lot of suffering.

    However, most folks here would see a guy in a mask and shoot the minute they turned to face you rather than waiting to become the victim. The story doesn't say who fired first, so the grandson could have seen grandpa with a gun and been the first to fire.

    By the same logic of coulda, shoulda, woulda - we could argue that if grandpa would have carried a Louisville Slugger, instead of a gun, his grandson would still be alive. (but grandpa may be the one dead).

    I agree completely, carry a light. I just disagree that it was likely to prevent much of anything in this situation. The kid should have stayed home. Speculating what the grandpa should have done differently to prevent shooting his grandson is the same thing the prosecuting attornoy would be saying to a jury (in some states) in order to get Grandpa locked up.

    But, maybe this one hits a bit close to home for you so we'll have to agree on the importance of a flashlight - regardless
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

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    [QUOTE=tinkerinWstuff;1208146]Janq - the guy was wearing a ski mask. /QUOTE]

    Thank you for pointing that out. I get tired of posts that don't seem to have read the OP.
    Eric

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed TIW, most folk would be like WTH! at the sight of a person in their home with a ski-mask. No doubt to that at all. And they would not at all be wrong to react with BANG, BANG BANG!

    Again still though...Keep and carry a torch so as to positively identify the target before firing, no would/should/could gaming involved.

    ECbaatz I did read the OP and did so in fact twice, before posting.
    There has been great discussion at this forum toward light or night sights and I'm on record as light > night sights and this is just another real world example of why as much is the case. With or without a ski mask being involved.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    Shooting your 'blood' would be a shock and certainly a 'memory' worse than just a regular BG, but the kid was a BG.
    The 'relative dirtbag' shooting your wife would be even worse!

    I don't think the grandfather had any choice. Could he have identified the BG with a light, perhaps...perhaps not, and it's not like he had minutes to discuss the situation.

    Someone coming in through a window in the early morning hours is not the typical settng for family conversations.

    I hope the grandparents can work this situation out in their minds...the grandson is in a place he was working very hard to get to...
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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed Ret.

    On the totality of this specific case as it unfolded including more so that the BG entered as armed, home invasion and burglary with a firearm...both being felony actions, it's pretty much a given that the kid was not there to leave grandpa a tooth fairy prize. :|

    The kid gambled and he came up snake eyes.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    I don't know how the grandfather will come through this. Pray for him. This is more awful than any man should have to face.
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan

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