Interesting observations, wjh, something to think about....you too, Janq.
I have a UT CCW, and when I went on vacation in MN, I left the gun in the truck if I was going to a bar or nightspot. I also have a CDL, which requires me to be .039 BAC, which means a max of one drink per hour, at least in IL. I can't remember whether MN law requires disarm before going into a bar, I'm pretty sure I checked on that, and I'm pretty sure it did. MN residents, you can fill in the blanks, I'm sure. I did carry a knife and OC spray, however.
I think for me, assuming it was legal in that state, I would carry a gun into a bar b/c trouble is more likely to happen there and 9.9 times out of ten I am very vigilant in how much alcohol I consume. Assuming I could, if I had a gun, I would consume very little to no alcohol. If I was going out for a good time and was going to have two drinks or so in an hour, I would probably leave the gun in the truck. I'm the type of person who really does not like to drink without some food on hand to complement the alcohol and help absorb it. I also drink quality, not quantity and generally stay out of dives...
Re less than lethal options: if reports are accurate, Butler was facing three men with knives at close quarters with his friend in between, on the ground. I think in that case at that point, drawing a gun may have been the least worst option. Now, was there a point before when he could have extricated his friend and himself from potential or actual conflict? That's definitely a valid question....
Agreed on all points WJH.
Especially as in regard to bars/drinking and individual background.
I am as much against drinking and carrying as I am drinking and driving, having been a real victim who suffered as result of a confirmed alcoholic having made the irrational and wrong choice to get behind the wheel.
I'm all for choice though.
Just as there is no law saying that you cannot drive to or from a an alcohol serving establishment, where clearly patrons to the majority are intending to drink. I am for same in that no such law should suspend a persons basic human right of self defense as recognized by the 2A which is a far greater law of man kind and constitutionally recognized governance than that of a motor vehicle operators license and allowance, not right, to drive a vehicle to and from locations.
It's always struck me odd that folks and politicians are against bar and alcohol service establishment carry yet have no problem at all with people driving to such places so as to turn around and drive themself home after having assumedly had a few as they assume toward firearm carry.
Totally agreed as in regard to duty to retreat as related to self defense items such as this.
These guys all both offense and defense acted as though they had more interest in posturing than actually A) Doing anything such as enter into combat or B) Leaving for concern of real and _MORTAL_ danger.
Even after the shot was fired neither party made much effort to cut it out and retreat with any significant measure of effort as relative to before the shot being fired.
That alone leads me to believe some of those folks if not all had been drinking to a degree of mental impairment as related to threat assessment and decision making.
Bottom line folks: Do not be these fools.
In Tennessee all "bars" have to be restaurants to serve liquor. Our law is to cover entering a restaurant to eat if there is a bar attached. The best restaurants all seem to serve liquor. I don't know the Oregon law or the nature of the stated establishment. But I have to wonder, if a group was in there in force and they were all carrying knives, it doesn't exactly sound like a family restaurant. I don't know for sure, but it sure sounds entry into the "3S Zone" to me.
This wouldn't have flown in Tennessee. He would at a minimum been charged and lost his HCP at least for a while. He also would have gotten a good lecture from the judge at his probation hearing (he would have probably gotten probation, not jail time) as to maturity and good sense.
In MA and VA too, the shooter would have been charged with a crime even as no video might not be available.
As soon as he'd stated 'warning shot' as being his purpose toward discharge, boom that is generally not a lawful nor defenseable action and position.
In MA carry into bars is completely lawful. But you better not be caught with alcohol in you or as being served to you, as you carry. As things should be.
As to the other three guys now days everybody and their momma carrys a pocket folder to 'cut boxes' and what not. I very much see as much commonly, more so than I used to a decade and more ago.
If I were them I'd claim self defense (!).
A scuffle broke out, the interaction was three on three and then dude as _aggressor_ claimed to have a gun to which he later _brandishes_ so I/we bring to bear blades so as to defend ourselves and at that dude fires his so called 'warning shot' only he continues to aggress forward against us as we three attempt to retreat.
That would be my side of the story and if my attorney is even half way good I'd beat most if not all charges outside of having very damning positive witness statements by third parties toward some other angle of the story. Even as I may in fact have been the instigator and BG.
This is why we GGs who do carry regularly must THINK before we act and be ready and capable to think on the fly on our feet as and when an issue comes to fore.
Otherwise you're stuck in a constant mode of reaction and being behind the loop, which generally is not a good place to be.