Portland, OR: Man pulls gun during bar-fight, shoots warning round.
This is a discussion on Portland, OR: Man pulls gun during bar-fight, shoots warning round. within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Sorry mods, I meant to post this in the news forum. Feel free to move it.... I won't be cross-posting.
Man whips out cell, captures ...
July 16th, 2009 03:24 PM
Portland, OR: Man pulls gun during bar-fight, shoots warning round.
Sorry mods, I meant to post this in the news forum. Feel free to move it.... I won't be cross-posting.
Man whips out cell, captures gunfire outside bar | KATU.com - Portland, Oregon | Local & Regional
PORTLAND, Ore. – A confrontation involving a man with a knife and another man with a gun was captured on video Friday night in Portland.
Police said the incident took place at Sewickely’s Addition on Southeast Hawthorn Boulevard.
Witnesses said a fight in the bar spilled out into the street where a man reportedly brandished a knife. Another man, Christopher Butler, 25, allegedly pulled out a hand gun, fired one shot into the ground and told the man with the knife to put the weapon away.
Phillip Ragaway was standing nearby when the incident took place and pulled out his cell phone to record the event. Just minutes before, he had discovered his phone was capable of recording video.
Ragaway captured Butler allegedly firing his weapon as other people stood or walked nearby. Shouting and cursing can be heard on the recording.
Police arrested three people and charged them with disorderly conduct. Butler, who has a permit to carry a firearm, faces gun-related charges.
No one was hurt in the altercation.
The video clearly shows the shooter, a CHL holder, firing a warning shot into the ground while ADVANCING on his alleged attacker.
Probably a picture perfect example of what not to do.
The rumor mill around here suggests that the handgun charges were dropped. If so, this man got extremely lucky.
July 16th, 2009 03:24 PM
July 16th, 2009 03:33 PM
he is very lucky if they drop the gun charges.
July 16th, 2009 03:35 PM
YouTube - Bar fight Sewickley's Portland shooting part 1
This video more clearly shows the entire altercation. He fights off several men in the defense of his friends, and instead of putting more distance between his party and the attackers, he fires the warning shot as he advances.
July 16th, 2009 03:52 PM
A warning shot will get you into trouble almost every time.
An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein
July 16th, 2009 03:59 PM
side note...anyone else notice the car that had been traveling in that direction threw it into reverse and made a mad dash going the other direction in reverse? I think I may have had the same idea...
"My God David, We're a Civilized society."
"Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
-The Mist (2007)
July 16th, 2009 04:03 PM
In the second vid when the cops show up a bystander said it perfectly..."What a @#$%& retard!" haha
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin
Steps in the stripping of State's Rights/Sovereignty
1. War of Northern Agression 2. Coersion to ratify the 14th Amendment 3. Ratified 17th Amendment
July 16th, 2009 04:37 PM
I couldnt tell wether it was the guy in the red or white shirt that shot, looked to me like the guy in white but hard to tell. In the second vid the background guy also said it was the guy in red, but I think he was mistaken. It was dumb any way you cut it. Most likely he had been drinking and if legally carrying, will at least loose his ccp, probably worse.
CHP holder. EDC G27. I support VCDL, so glad to have them fighting for my rights.
July 16th, 2009 04:51 PM
Considering the what happened I hope the cops drop the charges . Things could have got a lot worse if the man with the knife decided to use it. If it were me I would not have fired that warning shot.I would have told the man with the knife that I was armed and to put the knife away.If he came after me with the knife that would have been a whole different story. It's too bad the cops got involved . It looks like the problem was already solved.
July 16th, 2009 05:18 PM
Nah. You can plainly see the guy in the red shirt extended his hand to 45 degrees and then you see the flash at his hand.... Right before, if you look, you can see his pistol in hand.
And yes.. what a *******. That could have ended so much better and kept him legal.
"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand
NRA Member / Ohio Conceal Carry Instructor
July 16th, 2009 05:57 PM
First mistake, going to a bar armed (not sure he can do that legally). Second mistake, not walking away...he became part of the problem when he continued the fight outside.
Third mistake, using his gun to warn someone why he shouldn't bring a knife to gun fight.
He'll be lucky to keep his permit...what a 'maroooon'.
"That I cannot do."
"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
July 16th, 2009 06:14 PM
One of Butler's friends posted this in the comments section on the site:
I hear folks about ricochets, but do you think that Butler should have just shot the knife wielders then? The guys with knives were within 21 feet of him, probably less than 10 feet, IIRC.
I posted a similar question re warning shots but didn't really have much response. In a situation like this where one judges that one is dealing with idiots that could be chased off with a warning shot, should one take the small? risk of hitting a bystander? Shots ricochet off of asphalt, would shooting in the air be an acceptable risk in this situation? I guess the other poster did point out that Butler should have backed away, warned, then shot, but there was the complication of his friend being in danger of being stabbed by three knife wielders. Is this why he advances on the knife wielders, to extricate his friend? I wonder how many, if any drinks he had? Apparently, you can have some alcohol and cc in Oregon.
Assuming the situation is how Butler's friend and I describe it, I think I would have drawn, held the gun as close in to my body for retention as possible while still maintaining accuracy, issued a stern warning to stop! Then, walk away! If they advanced toward my friend or I with knives, I would have had to fire. All of this is having the benefit of sitting in front of the pc of course and thinking it through....
"Ive been waiting for this story to hit this site.
I know the two people that were involved including the one that pulled out his gun.
4 people attacked Chis's friend and started beating him on the ground. When he got involved 3 of them pulled out knifes and started coming for him and his friend.
He then pulled out his gun and one of the guys tried to take it. That's when he fired a shot into the ground
I would have done a lot more if 3 people armed with knifes came after me especially after they attacked a friend and then started attacking me.
All charges have been dropped against Chris. Weird huh?
It sounds more to me like self-defense. Trying to form opinions off of a low resolution camera along with a lacking news report sure makes it easy to judge people for trying to keep from getting killed by idiots.
What would you have done? Run? Cry? Curl up into a little ball and watch your friend get stabbed ?
Chris is very upset about what he did and still does not know if he did the right thing. But he would be a lot more if he had watched his friend get stabbed over some stupid bar argument. Then all of you would be on here saying the same things about stupid drunk people stabbing and killing each other. "
By the forests, behind the guns/In the streets and in the houses/Between the tanks, by the roadside/At the hands of the men, of the women, of the children/In the cold, in the dark, in hunger....
Bertolt Brecht, "To The German Soldiers In The East", stanza 9.
July 16th, 2009 06:54 PM
Isn't this why we carry? To defend ourselves,our friends our love ones? Now this isn't the best case, but what is?
Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
July 16th, 2009 09:40 PM
Bad stuff happens in bars
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
--Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .
July 16th, 2009 11:27 PM
I can see why the police let the shooter go.
I can see why the shooter felt the need to do what he did.
I can see why the observers as recorded on super excellent video, that is better in clarity than the video my local news people shoot!, commented that they thought the shooter was a retard.
This is a good example of why we as civilians should seriously entertain carrying a lower level threat management device as in addition to our weapon of last resort firearm.
Rather than a 'warning shot' had he drawn and shot OC/CS at the primary threat (closest) if not to his secondary too, who as shown was actually trying to pull the primary away from continued engagement, then that would have bought all three more than enough time and space to leave.
The person in the comments speaks to having had a third person among his party having been past tense knocked to the ground and attacked in some manner. That is not shown on video. Everyone is on their feet and yelling as well as posturing with don't mess with me man body language.
Spray the fools in the face, and walk or light jog it off. Call the cops from up the block and around the corner at benefit of distance and _safety_.
Further it did not look like the victims were actually trying to leave the fight either. Again just by body language and actual as shown in the recording movement action.
After the shot was fired all three should have left immediately...in the OPPOSITE direction as toward SAFETY. Duh!
Instead what do they do? Close distance at the aggressors and the gun guy he walks and talks at them as though he were suddenly deputized, or something. Not good.
At this kids age I did same stuff fighting in bars and pouring into streets to chest thump or even actually battle it out, for real rather than for play as these kids were.
Being a decade and a half older than that now though, I don't have any interest nor time for that kind of garbage.
I'm all about 'Hey man you got it you da man. My fault. You know what I'm just gonna get on up outta here playa.'.
Walk away backward head on a swivel for snipers and dive bombers, and then soon as I can get some distance I'm out like Carl Lewis...to the first corner I can cut and duck or other safe spot with distance. And I dial 911.
If that is not an option then out comes the spray with my _weak hand_ to spray as my strong hand is up to defend myself and/or ready to escalate force if and when _appropriate_.
This case to my eye per the video featuring all persons actions was not IMHO a lethal force appropriate situation. And 'warning shots' are wrong on multiple levels.
Still though I can see totally why dude did what he did thinking in the immediate under stress and very likely with no good if any training/experience at all as related to dealing with hostile/irrational acting and minded threats. Threat management.
As well I can see why the law might let him off as it was very much disparity of force by the threats all being armed with lethal weapons as alleged. Further there is a case of battery as well as even assault with a deadly weapon.
I personally would not do nor support what this person did.
I can understand and see how he thought what he did was the best mode of action in the real time immediate. Unfortunately he set himself up for being in such a matter of decision by choosing to not support a non-lethal mode of defense as a primary layer in addition to that of his sidearm.
He is lucky and after he launders his manties should do himself a favor and sign up for a class or course on crisis and/or threat management as specific to dealing with individuals.
This type of thing is not covered in generic Gun Shop Inc. minimum mandatory state approved CCW courses. While use of non-lethal alternatives and education toward threat level recognition seems to be very much glossed over, as based on the many questions and hypothetical what should I do stuff that civilians very often post at gunfu forums as related to incidents exactly like this.
P.S. - Carrying into a bar is not a big deal.
Being near, around, at, or within a bar does not at all imply nor require an individual to drink anything at all muchless to purchase and drink alcohol in specific.
This has been covered in an earlier thread bu I myself routinely carry to establishments that serve alcohol from pool halls and sports bars to family restaurants and bowling alleys. I don't drink when I carry. Period. It's no big deal to order a Sprite. Self control. Either you have it or you don't. If you don't then well you shouldn't be carrying a firearm or for that matter a knife or even OC/CS. Anywhere.
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
July 17th, 2009 08:36 AM
If you are part of an altercation and you are carrying, you do have a duty to try to leave the fight (Retreat), if not specifically stated in the state law (in Tennessee it is stated) it has been upheld in case law to the point that it is a tenet of self defense. If you continue in fight or advance into fight, you are no longer in a legal self defense mode. If you partiucipate in a fight that goes bad and weapons come out and you continue to participate without a strong attempt to withdraw you are simply a participant who brought a gun to a knife fight. At this point it goes to a jury, it's too complicated to make logical decision on the spot as to what degree this man violated the law.
I came from a family that drank, I drank pretty heavy for many years and I still have a drink on occasion. I have finally reached the point where I can be with people who drink and not want a drink. But it has taken me 66 years to get to that point! Most drinkers I have met (probably 100s, maybe 1000s) will end up having a drink if their friends are drinking. Some have the will power to resist, but most don't. A drink clouds your judgement to the point that you should not be carrying a gun. Drink, in itself,does not make you mean or homicidal, but it makes it easier to be that way if you are already inherently inclined to be mean or physically abusive. The is no such thing as a "mean drunk", there are mean people who are now drunk. I state this because I want you to understand why a strong 2dA upporting NRA member is not in favor of guns in bars.
I don't know whether this man was imbibing or not, but his behavior sure tends to make you think he could have been! Bars or places with bars in them are always in the potential 3S mode! With the balm present to make the worst come out in people, the worst will come out. You don't have to defend yourself in these places, because you don't have to go there to begin with. Yes, I do go to some nice restaurants with bars in them. I don't drink because I have to drive away from there. I have been around long enough to know that I am entering an environment full of judgement impaired people. I leave the gun in the car because I have sense enough to know that I have just elected to put my body in harm's way when it wasn't really neccessary and carrying a gun into this environment is not a smart move.
Even the lawmen in the old west made patrons check their guns when entering saloons!
Retired Marine, Retired School Teacher, Independent voter, Goldwater Conservative.
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