Ugly, Austin shopkeeper charged w murder - Page 3

Ugly, Austin shopkeeper charged w murder

This is a discussion on Ugly, Austin shopkeeper charged w murder within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Just my dos centavos. I've got a problem with someone shooting a guy in the back (if press accounts true) who's running away with a ...

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Thread: Ugly, Austin shopkeeper charged w murder

  1. #31
    Member Array Eirerogue's Avatar
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    Just my dos centavos. I've got a problem with someone shooting a guy in the back (if press accounts true) who's running away with a 12 pack. Sure he's a thief, but this guy fires 12 rounds? I'm thinking about how he articulates he's in fear of his life?

    Also, I couldn't/wouldn't blow some guy up over a 12 pack. If I was threatened, the 12 pack is no issue. But a guy running away from me...it's like he stole 4 candy bars.

    Maybe it's just me.


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    He doesn't have to articulate. He doesn't have to be in fear of his life. It does not have to be "self defense". Texas law permits the use of deadly force (under certain circumstances) to protect property.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  3. #33
    Distinguished Member Array phreddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mardet65 View Post
    Man, that scares me. Thanks for the information, now that I'm retired my wife and I are thinking about relocating to a warmer climate . . . but I doubt it will be in Texas.
    Why? Do you have a habit of shoplifting beer at 1:30 in the monring?

  4. #34
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    Why would cleaning up the cases and erasing the video count for anything whatsoever if no underlying crime had happened? Suppose, because the theft happened at night and there was no other way for the clerk to get the property back (asking politely wouldn't work) the shooting was actually lawful--which it might be--- then what does the other stuff have to do with anything?

    At most cleaning up and erasing just might mean only that he mistakenly thought he committed a crime and mistakenly got rid of "evidence" which actually wasn't evidence at all. Someone can think they did a crime, get rid of stuff to cover their trail, but if no crime happened, so what?

    It all hinges as cwblanco wrote on that funky phrase that has no specific meaning, "reasonably believes."

    Theft at night, and he reasonably believed there was no other way to recover the property. And that is a reasonable belief. Asking politely wouldn't work. Running up to them to take it back would likely have gotten the clerk beaten or worse.

    Did he act wisely? No. Was a crime committed by the clerk? Only time and a couple of juries will tell.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    I've said before that I don't ask when can I legally shoot; I ask when MUST I ABSOLUTELY have to shoot in order to save my life or that of another innocent person.

    To kill someone merely to stop them from running off with your beer is to my way of thinking CRIMINAL!! I won't shed any tears for this guy if he fries.

    This moron is a classic example for the anti's on why people should not be allowed to own guns. He did no favors for anyone.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  6. #36
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulG View Post
    I've said before that I don't ask when can I legally shoot; I ask when MUST I ABSOLUTELY have to shoot in order to save my life or that of another innocent person.

    To kill someone merely to stop them from running off with your beer is to my way of thinking CRIMINAL!! I won't shed any tears for this guy if he fries.

    This moron is a classic example for the anti's on why people should not be allowed to own guns. He did no favors for anyone.
    Well said.

    The Texas laws that allow people to murder thieves are immoral.

    I wonder if it would change anyone's mind if someone was killed after paying for his beer because the clerk forgot the guy paid? Ooops! Innocent mistake!

    When you allow citizens to be determiners of the law, judge, jury and executioner then you have anarchy. It is why I would never live in Texas nor even visit there. It is difficult enough to defend against bad guys but when morons with guns even THINK they have a 'right' to shoot someone, then it is time to avoid the situation completely. I'd rather walk the projects in Detroit than spend a minute in Texas.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Array Freedom Doc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Well said.

    The Texas laws that allow people to murder thieves is immoral.

    I wonder if it would change anyone's mind if someone was killed after paying for his beer because the clerk forgot the guy paid? Ooops! Innocent mistake!

    When you allow citizens to be determiners of the law, judge, jury and executioner then you have anarchy. It is why I would never live in Texas nor even visit there. It is difficult enough to defend against bad guys but when morons with guns even THINK they have a 'right' to shoot someone, then it is time to avoid the situation completely. I'd rather walk the projects in Detroit then spend a minute in Texas.
    Do you really believe this, or are you just spouting off? I think you have become obsessed with the Joe Horn case to the point you can hardly think straight. Texas (any part) is WAY safer than Detroit, any day of the week (at least for innocents).
    Anti-gunners seem to believe that if we just pass enough laws, we can have utopia. Unfortunately, utopia is NOT one of our choices.

  8. #38
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom Doc View Post
    Do you really believe this, or are you just spouting off? I think you have become obsessed with the Joe Horn case to the point you can hardly think straight. Texas (any part) is WAY safer than Detroit, any day of the week (at least for innocents).
    I think the Horn case was instrumental in promulgating the mindset that it is fine to kill people.

    Even in this thread we have people wondering if it was dusk so killing a shoplifter is justified under a perverted law.

    I have never been to Detroit but I would not expect so called law abiding citizens to shoot me in the back.

  9. #39
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    Re: PaulG

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulG View Post
    I've said before that I don't ask when can I legally shoot; I ask when MUST I ABSOLUTELY have to shoot in order to save my life or that of another innocent person.

    To kill someone merely to stop them from running off with your beer is to my way of thinking CRIMINAL!! I won't shed any tears for this guy if he fries.

    This moron is a classic example for the anti's on why people should not be allowed to own guns. He did no favors for anyone.
    Actually, I rather agree with you notwithstanding what I wrote in the post above your comment, to address the legal aspect. But then, the law is what it is. It is explicit that lethal force can be used to stop theft at night, to recover property that can't be recovered in any other way.

    In a big way, this becomes a parallel argument/discussion to the one going on about carrying guns near high political office holders. There is a difference between what is legal and what is proper.

  10. #40
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    I was under the impression all shooting cases in Texas go to a Grand Jury for review. They can charge him if they want, but the grand jury gets to decide what goes forward.

    Convenience stores are often robbed by dangerous people with guns. They are also often robbed by teens stealing beer.

    Tampering with evidence is a big no no. We shall see the clerk pay for that.

  11. #41
    Distinguished Member Array P7fanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    You aren't from Texas are you?

    In Harris county he would probably still get a walk on this. In Travis, I don't know. I give him 50/50 odds.
    Anywhere in Texas other than Austin/Travis County he'd have fair odds of walking.
    Every shooting in Austin/Travis County, even a clean self defense shooting, goes to a grand jury.



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  12. #42
    Senior Member Array Freedom Doc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P7fanatic View Post
    Anywhere in Texas other than Austin/Travis County he'd have fair odds of walking.
    Every shooting in Austin/Travis County, even a clean self defense shooting, goes to a grand jury.



    I thought that was pretty much a TX thing in general...
    Anti-gunners seem to believe that if we just pass enough laws, we can have utopia. Unfortunately, utopia is NOT one of our choices.

  13. #43
    Senior Member Array Mardet65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phreddy View Post
    Why? Do you have a habit of shoplifting beer at 1:30 in the monring?
    If that was an ill mannered attempt at humor it wasn't funny, just rude and totally uncalled for. If you want to disagree with me or something I said, feel free but let's not be insulting. Some people need to think before shooting, others need to think before commenting.
    Last edited by Mardet65; August 20th, 2009 at 11:43 AM.
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  14. #44
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    There is a difference between what is legal and what is proper.
    Agreed. That's why I hold myself to a higher moral standard than what the law requires.

    I realize that according to the law, this guy might not have committed a crime by chasing down a shoplifter and shooting him in the back.

    But it looks to me like the clerk was thinking, "Cool, I finally get to kill someone".

    I will concede that if the law says what he did was ok, then his charge should be merely tampering with evidence (but I don't have to like it).

    I think he is a sad excuse for a human being. Definitely not someone I would want to hang around with.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  15. #45
    Member Array Eirerogue's Avatar
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    I'm glad we're having the discussion on what's legally permitted vs. morally acceptable. Obviously the criteria changes from state to state, but anyone who carries a gun has to reflect on what's their personal position.

    As always, appreciate the give and take on issues that affect us all.

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