Ugly, Austin shopkeeper charged w murder

Ugly, Austin shopkeeper charged w murder

This is a discussion on Ugly, Austin shopkeeper charged w murder within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; An Austin shopkeeper was charged with murder for shooting and killing teens stealing beer from his place. Apparently, they were unarmed and just stole the ...

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  1. #1
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    Ugly, Austin shopkeeper charged w murder

    An Austin shopkeeper was charged with murder for shooting and killing teens stealing beer from his place.

    Apparently, they were unarmed and just stole the beer and took off.

    The store has had lots of problems with similar incidents.

    This incident is a good example of why folks need to take "the course" and learn the applicable penal code and the difference between justifiable and unjustifiable use of force.

    Personally, I'm on the shopkeepers side and the thief got more than he deserved, but too bad for him. Let it be a lesson to others.

    OTOH, the law is the law and the shopkeeper appears to have overstepped what he was allowed to do.

    An unfortunate incident all around.

    (I do want to add that I think stealing beer from a quick stop is a gateway crime. The "kids" were destined to do worse. Maybe we need to give store keepers a little more legal leeway.)

    Story at http://www.statesman.com/services/co...type=ynews_rss


  2. #2
    Member Array Ricebrnr's Avatar
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    ????

    I thought there were several cases in Texas recently that showed deadly force was allowed in the protection of property.

    Is there a monetary floor at which it is acceptable?

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    Senior Member Array TucAzRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricebrnr View Post
    ????

    I thought there were several cases in Texas recently that showed deadly force was allowed in the protection of property.

    Is there a monetary floor at which it is acceptable?
    Amen??? I thought the same thing when reading.. I thought you could protect what was yours at all expense??? BBQ grill, car, bike... beer,.. etc...

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    Senior Member Array Freedom Doc's Avatar
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    Well, this was in Austin, the most liberal place in Texas. But the store clerk deleted the images taken by the store cameras -- that makes it appear he knew he did wrong. If you're going to do it, stand by it.
    Last edited by Freedom Doc; August 18th, 2009 at 02:08 PM.
    Anti-gunners seem to believe that if we just pass enough laws, we can have utopia. Unfortunately, utopia is NOT one of our choices.

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    not for a misdemeanor

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricebrnr View Post
    ????

    I thought there were several cases in Texas recently that showed deadly force was allowed in the protection of property.

    Is there a monetary floor at which it is acceptable?
    Felony at night, aggravated felony, not misdemeanor theft.

    I need to look at the code again, because it might be that if this happened at night it was lawful. I don't know what time of day it happened.

    Also, the shop keeper chased them down and shot the guy in the back. He wasn't in fear of his life at the moment he shot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Felony at night, aggravated felony, not misdemeanor theft.

    I need to look at the code again, because it might be that if this happened at night it was lawful. I don't know what time of day it happened.

    Also, the shop keeper chased them down and shot the guy in the back. He wasn't in fear of his life at the moment he shot.
    There is a point in society in which we become too civilized. We have reached that point. I don’t care if he shot him in the back, private, or the chest, the criminal got what he deserved. If he did not want to get shot he shouldn’t have robbed the store.

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricebrnr View Post
    I thought there were several cases in Texas recently that showed deadly force was allowed in the protection of property.
    Sure, but like most things, it's not absolute.

    Sec. 9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY.
    (a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.

    (b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and:

    (1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or

    (2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

    Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

    Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY.

    A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

    (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

    (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

    (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

    (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

    (3) he reasonably believes that:

    (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means
    ; or

    (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

    Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.
    Theft of items from a store during the daytime doesn't qualify as "burglary," does it (given the store is occupied), nor robbery (given that nobody was threatened)? If not, then shooting people steeling items from an open store might not qualify with the statutes.

    Where it can get fuzzy is the "reasonableness" clauses.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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    Member Array LRFireEMS's Avatar
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    Agree with above, this is a sticky situation. Agreed that a store owner should be able to protect property, But it sounds like this was a bad shoot and he knew it.

    I feel bad for all parties involved, stupid teenage mistake cost him his life and it looks like the store owners life may take a detour for a while.

    Stay safe and keep your head up.

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    Well, taking the devil's advocate's viewpoint, if the store owner deleted the camera footage and there was no evidence to suggest that the owner tried verbally or otherwise to get the little punks to desist, then that clause the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate [the theft] is where a juror might see a problem.

    Why did the owner believe force was necessary if he didn't try anything else? If he tried to tell them to leave first, why did he delete the footage? Those are the questions that will complicate his defense.

    On the other hand, a couple of punk kids definitely chose the wrong place to swipe beer. Oh, well...
    “What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia

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    Senior Member Array Freedom Doc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kazzaerexys View Post
    Well, taking the devil's advocate's viewpoint, if the store owner deleted the camera footage and there was no evidence to suggest that the owner tried verbally or otherwise to get the little punks to desist, then that clause the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate [the theft] is where a juror might see a problem.

    Why did the owner believe force was necessary if he didn't try anything else? If he tried to tell them to leave first, why did he delete the footage? Those are the questions that will complicate his defense.

    On the other hand, a couple of punk kids definitely chose the wrong place to swipe beer. Oh, well...
    Well, I am part owner of a c-store in Oklahoma City and we have had a fair number of beer runs pulled on us, and I can tell you that you really have NO TIME to tell them much of anything. They are out the door with your beer and if you want to do anything, you have to chase them (which my 6'3" Korean black belt in Tai Kwon Do has done on a number of occasions -- not me but my brother in law). He has gotten the beer back a time or two, as well.
    Anti-gunners seem to believe that if we just pass enough laws, we can have utopia. Unfortunately, utopia is NOT one of our choices.

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    Distinguished Member Array Reborn's Avatar
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    I sure do believe there is a lot more to the story.
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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    It wasn't the Store Owner that shot the thief it was a store clerk,after he shot the guy,it was 2 guys on a beer run with the intent to steal beer,he cleaned up the brass and deleted the surveillance tapes,the BG's accomplice parked his car with the guys body in it and went home,he was in the process of filing a stolen car report when the cops showed up he finally told them what happened and where the car and body was
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    he cleaned up the brass and deleted the surveillance tapes
    ?? That'll get you some legal attention.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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    Senior Member Array Mardet65's Avatar
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    If I've got my facts right here, a teen (or teens) was shot in the back running away (unarmed) while shoplifting an undefined amount of beer - possibly an amount he could carry on his person, so let's say 4 six packs. And then the store owner or clerk who shot him erased the security tape recording of the incident and cleaned up the brass. Is there really any question of reasonableness in this scenario? Obviously the shooter didn't believe his actions were reasonable.
    "Kimbers are the guns you show your friends, Glocks are the guns you show your enemies."

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mardet65 View Post
    If I've got my facts right here, a teen (or teens) was shot in the back running away (unarmed) while shoplifting an undefined amount of beer - possibly an amount he could carry on his person, so let's say 4 six packs. And then the store owner or clerk who shot him erased the security tape recording of the incident and cleaned up the brass. Is there really any question of reasonableness in this scenario? Obviously the shooter didn't believe his actions were reasonable.
    It was a 12 pack and the clerk threw the beer in the dumpster after he cleaned up the crime scene
    The store owner claims it's not his gun he doesn't know where it came from and he never authorised anybody to carry a gun while working there
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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