6 Cops, 59 Shots, 43 Wounds, 1 Dead in Tenn. - Page 3

6 Cops, 59 Shots, 43 Wounds, 1 Dead in Tenn.

This is a discussion on 6 Cops, 59 Shots, 43 Wounds, 1 Dead in Tenn. within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Tangle While I fully support our PD, 59 shots, .40 cal or larger at that, I think demands an in-depth investigation. The ...

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Thread: 6 Cops, 59 Shots, 43 Wounds, 1 Dead in Tenn.

  1. #31
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    While I fully support our PD, 59 shots, .40 cal or larger at that, I think demands an in-depth investigation. The decision to shoot was probably well justified; the question is how to know when to stop shooting. I hope the investigation determines the officer did the right thing to shoot, and I feel fairly confident it will turn out that way. Fifty nine shots may be more difficult to resolve.
    One shot, or any shots is cause for an investigation.

    As long as the threat is in your sights, current teaching in a lot of places is, keep shooting. I can easily see where this many shots can be fired in a short amount of time, given the number of officers present.

    Also, bear in mind, during a shooting it's not uncommon to think you fired three times and later find you actually fired more rounds. Another issue is, once your co-workers start shooting it's something that can spread like wildfire. Others start shooting, perceiving a threat. You may think the badguy is firing, when it's really a co-worker's gun discharging bullets that you hear.

    Mr. Tangle, if you look at how fast Jerry Miculek can get off 12 rounds with a six shot revolver, under three seconds with one reload and still his target twelve times, I fail to see why a cop with a rudimentary understanding of the basics of pistolcraft can't unload fifteen rounds in under five seconds.

    This was actually pretty good shooting in my book. Whether it is a "justified" shooting is another matter.

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  2. #32
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Another issue I forgot to mention is that given their training and expirience, all of them may have perceieved the same threat at almost the same instantaneous time.

    Biker

  3. #33
    Member Array russ1986's Avatar
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    he was drunk and acting out of control. he was told to put the weapon down and refused yes they did the right thing. How ever the amount of shots fired does seems a little over the top. how ever i was not their.
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  4. #34
    Member Array Defensive Arms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reborn View Post
    Each officer used a .45-caliber pistol.
    I'm glad to see that the police in Chattanooga are allowed to use a no nonsense round on duty.
    "I've run across shooting after shooting where the defender shot a violent aggressor with a .380 and did little to immediately stop his depredations. A good hollow point load in 9mm or .38 Special will, historically, end lethal assaults more quickly."

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  5. #35
    Member Array earlthegoat2's Avatar
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    What is the difference in the end between one killing shot and forty three killing shots?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by earlthegoat2 View Post
    What is the difference in the end between one killing shot and forty three killing shots?
    There's a lot of difference - the guy may have been incapacitated by the first two shots, fell to the ground unconscious, but alive, on top of the rifle. In that case, I don't think anyone would want the cops to shoot him 41 more times. Unfortunately, it was likely impossible in this specific case for the cops to determine if the man was incapacitated and so we can understand why the LEOs continued shooting.

    I'm not critisizing the cops at all - I'm satisfied they did the best they could under the circumstances. I don't believe there was any mal intent among them except to end an imminent potentially deadly threat.

    OTOH, some seem to be implying that there is nothing wrong with a cop, as a SOP, to shoot someone until he is down, shoot him some more until his gun is empty, reload and shoot him some more. But, in this specific case, until shown otherwise, I believe the cops did what they perceived as necessary to neutralize the threat. But responses like this should be the exception, not the SOP.
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  7. #37
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    BTW, from on going reports, it would seem that the 43 hits everyone thought was so good of a hit ratio, includes entrance and exit wounds. One statement made reflecting the autopsy, said it was difficult to determine how many times he was hit because one bullet may have made multiple wounds.

    Again, no critisizm of the CPD, but it has baffled me from the start how 6 officers could have such a high hit percentage, especially in that situation. Based on the reporting referenced above, it would appear that there may have only been around 20 hits out of the 59 - that's about a 34% hit ratio which is much more in line with police shootings.

    So, while it's still a lot of shooting, it would now appear there was a lot of misses - necessitating more shooting to incapacitate the person.

    All I can say is it's a good thing they were all using .45s with all it's effectiveness of stopping fights and all. If they'd been using 9mms it's no tellin' how many rounds it would have taken. Of course, OTOH, maybe they would have gotten better hits with 9's and ended it sooner.

    And, BTW, if you think just any hit counts, this man was shot all over, legs, buttocks, etc., everywhere but the COM or head. So if you think COM and head shots aren't necessary to end a gunfight, here's a good example to think about.
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  8. #38
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    The argument is whether it was "over-kill". I wasn't there, maybe it was and maybe it wasn't. Hard to tell.

  9. #39
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    Mr.Tangle, I did not count how many times you posted on this thread, but it looks like you are getting carried away with youself taking about it. Quote from the first post of this thread. The medical examiner found 43 bullet wounds in his chest, face, arms, hands, legs, buttocks and groin. I know that he did not give a breakdown on the numbers but he did start with the chest and face, I guess I need to find out what COM really means.

    And Mr. Saber, and a couple of others, I think you all need to be shot at once while shooting before you talk about the number of hits in a shooting confrontation. That is one hell of an adriealin dump then trying to see you sights, oh and I forget, in the dark after a couple of muzzle flashes. Have you ever even had a night fire course. Where there not just a plain paper target, try one what is moving around while you are having to move around. It is very simple, people do it all the time in the movies and on TV.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Array digitalexplr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAG45 View Post
    Mr.Tangle, I did not count how many times you posted on this thread, but it looks like you are getting carried away with youself taking about it. Quote from the first post of this thread. The medical examiner found 43 bullet wounds in his chest, face, arms, hands, legs, buttocks and groin. I know that he did not give a breakdown on the numbers but he did start with the chest and face, I guess I need to find out what COM really means.

    And Mr. Saber, and a couple of others, I think you all need to be shot at once while shooting before you talk about the number of hits in a shooting confrontation. That is one hell of an adriealin dump then trying to see you sights, oh and I forget, in the dark after a couple of muzzle flashes. Have you ever even had a night fire course. Where there not just a plain paper target, try one what is moving around while you are having to move around. It is very simple, people do it all the time in the movies and on TV.
    JAG45 I fear you may confuse certain folks by trying to explain reality. Far to many folks on this forum and others have gotten most of the ballistic and shoot-out knowledge from Hollywood special effects specialists.

    Hopefully they will never learn how wrong they are. For some the results will not pleasant.

    But, as an ex-cop and Vietnam Vet, what do I know about shoot-outs.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAG45 View Post
    Mr.Tangle, I did not count how many times you posted on this thread, but it looks like you are getting carried away with youself taking about it. Quote from the first post of this thread. The medical examiner found 43 bullet wounds in his chest, face, arms, hands, legs, buttocks and groin. I know that he did not give a breakdown on the numbers but he did start with the chest and face, I guess I need to find out what COM really means.
    I think it's important to separate fact from fiction as we know it now. This is not the only sight talking about this, you should check some of them. As I said, later reports indicate that there were 43 bullet wounds but it seems now that that does not mean the 43 wounds were from 43 hits. If that were the case, and it isn't, the CPD hit ratio would be way out of proportion to the national norms. Even you talked about the blinding effect of muzzle flash etc. so it would be difficult indeed to think that they got 43 hits out of 59 under those conditions. But more updated reports indicate both entrance and exit wounds were counted. That would reduce the number of hits significantly. So it is very unlikely that he was hit 43 times. Even the autopsy preliminary findings indicated that at this point they were uncertain how many rounds actually hit him.

    Much of this is now on the internet. I haven't seen it, but I understand there's a video of the event as it actually happened. Have you seen that? I also understand that there's a diagram on the internet, (I haven't seen it either) that identifies and numbers the wounds - have you looked at that?

    I know you know what COM means. It would seem there just weren't enough hits to the COM. Plus I firmly believe time will prove that no where near 43 rounds hit him.

    The newspaper report that appeared 18 AUG 2009, said the officers were between 10 and 12 feet from him when they started shooting. I would presume they also began moving as they shot although I have not read anything to indicate that.

    But hey, I could be in error, if you have facts contrary to what I've posted, now would be a good time to present them.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAG45 View Post
    ...Have you ever even had a night fire course. Where there not just a plain paper target, try one what is moving around while you are having to move around. It is very simple, people do it all the time in the movies and on TV.
    As a matter of fact, yes I have - Thunder Ranch Handgun Level II Low Light Level 5 day course with moving targets, Gunsite 5 day 350 course with Simunitions FOF simulators day and night, Gunsight 5 day 499 Advanced Handgun with both day and night simulators including FOF - five day course, Gunsite Advanced Tactics Pistol 5 day course, with day and night FOF simulators, Gunsite Tactical Shotgun 5 day course with simulators. So not only have I shot stationary targets and moving targets, both day and night, I've shot threats that are shooting back.
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  12. #42
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    I believe he would have put that weapon down," Marine said. "They should have said, 'Mr. Heyward, put the weapon down. We're here to help you.' ... He wasn't threatening no one."
    this guys father seems to know everything the police should have done and said to help his son. if he knew all this why didn't he get help for his son a long time ago?
    i guess he expected someone else to do it.
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAG45 View Post
    Boy, oh boy...... To me it does not matter if a person was shot with a BB gun, a 22, a 32, a 458 super mangle-um, a 700 Nirto Express, or a 105mm howitzer, that killed them. It only matters if that first shot was justified. All the others rounds fired to make sure there is still no threat left, should not matter. I know it is just MOSO (My Own Stupid Opinion). But if you really look at it, that is all that really matters.
    that makes sense to me.
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  14. #44
    Distinguished Member Array phreddy's Avatar
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    This whole counting the number of shots fired thing seems pretty analgous to the "shoot to wound" argument. If the deadly force is justifed is the only matter here.

  15. #45
    Member Array earlthegoat2's Avatar
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    This is somewhat similar to the Amadou Diallo incident in NYC a while back. Of course that shooting started because Diallo was getting his wallet to give the police his ID and then the shooting started. I think it was 4 cops and 40 something shots fired as well. The big stink wasnt made about the mistaken shooting but once again the number of shots fired.

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