Hot off the Wire! Off-Duty LEO in gun battle in San Antonio Eatery

This is a discussion on Hot off the Wire! Off-Duty LEO in gun battle in San Antonio Eatery within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Just heard this on the radio here in San Antonio, an off-duty SAPD officer was having breakfast in an East side restuarant when two armed ...

Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: Hot off the Wire! Off-Duty LEO in gun battle in San Antonio Eatery

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,108

    Hot off the Wire! Off-Duty LEO in gun battle in San Antonio Eatery

    Just heard this on the radio here in San Antonio, an off-duty SAPD officer was having breakfast in an East side restuarant when two armed robbers walked in and demanded money. The LEO drew down on them both and a gun battle ensued, the Officer was unhurt, both suspects took off, no reports on injuries yet. If there is a news link I will post it......
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    VIP Member Array cvhoss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    2,045
    News Article.
    By Brian Chasnoff - Express-News

    An officer who accidentally shot and killed a robbery victim last week was involved in another shooting this morning, this time while off-duty at an East Side restaurant.

    Officer William Karman had just gotten off work and was eating breakfast with relatives at La Gardenia Mexican Restaurant in the 1800 block of North Pine Street around 9 a.m. when two armed men entered an adjoining room and ordered a cashier to give them money, according to Police Chief William McManus.

    A patron tapped Karman, who was in uniform, and told him about the ongoing robbery. So Karman stood up, told everyone in the restaurant to get down and yelled, "Police!" according to Darren Dominguez, who was eating breakfast inside.

    A suspect fired at Karman, and the officer fired back, McManus said. No one was hit, and the two men fled out a side door.

    Karman chased them outside, and a suspect fired again at the officer. Karman fired back.

    "The officer believes he might have hit one of the suspects," McManus said.

    The two men jumped in a car and got away. They had not been found at 11 a.m.

    Early Aug. 30, Karman was flagged down at an apartment complex near Ogden and East Park, where two men were beating James Lee Whitehead in a robbery.

    One of the men fled and the other kept beating Whitehead. Karman ordered him to stop, but the man, Jesse Ramon, pointed a handgun at the officer, police said.

    Karman fired twice, striking Ramon in both legs, and Ramon kept advancing, so the officer fired three more times. He struck Ramon twice in the torso and Whitehead once in the chest.

    Whitehead died soon after. District Attorney Susan Reed verbally cleared Karman in the shooting two days later. Also cleared by the Police Department, the officer returned to the streets a few days ago.
    Sig 239 SAS 40 S&W / Sig 239 9mm / Kahr PM-9 / Walther PPS .40 / Sig P-245 / Ruger LCP
    Beretta Tomcat / Walther PPK / BDA 380 / Taurus 85 / Kel-Tec PF-9 / Am. Derringer 357

    NRA Life Member
    My Web Site

  4. #3
    Member Array BaserRonin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    304
    "and the officer fired back, McManus said. No one was hit"

    "suspect fired again at the officer. Karman fired back. "The officer believes he might have hit one""

    "Karman fired twice, striking Ramon in both legs, and Ramon kept advancing, so the officer fired three more times. He struck Ramon twice in the torso and Whitehead once in the chest."



    Someone should make that guy qualify again with his pistol. That sounds like pretty poor shooting.

  5. #4
    Senior Member Array Rustynuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    777
    WHAAT? The officer killed an unarmed civilian (even by accident) and is slapped on the hand? I hope there's a huge civil suit pending. If a CCW did that, they'd be in prison.

  6. #5
    Distinguished Member Array lacrosse50's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    SW Ohio
    Posts
    1,283
    Quote Originally Posted by BaserRonin View Post
    "and the officer fired back, McManus said. No one was hit"

    "suspect fired again at the officer. Karman fired back. "The officer believes he might have hit one""

    "Karman fired twice, striking Ramon in both legs, and Ramon kept advancing, so the officer fired three more times. He struck Ramon twice in the torso and Whitehead once in the chest."



    Someone should make that guy qualify again with his pistol. That sounds like pretty poor shooting.
    +1 to that. Unless Whitehead got up and was standing next to Ramon that sounds like some rather inaccurate shooting.
    The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
    -Herbert Spencer

    NRA Life Member

  7. #6
    Senior Member Array Jackle1886's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Kendall, MI
    Posts
    941
    Quote Originally Posted by Rustynuts View Post
    WHAAT? The officer killed an unarmed civilian (even by accident) and is slapped on the hand? I hope there's a huge civil suit pending. If a CCW did that, they'd be in prison.
    Read the story. BD was beating his robbery victim, pointed a gun at the officer, the officer fired on the BD.
    Better to die on your feet, than to live on your knees.

  8. #7
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    4,766
    Officer Karman should spend more time at the range, and pick better neighborhoods to hang out in while off duty.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
    www.ddchl.com
    Texas CHL Instructor
    Texas Hunter Education Instructor
    NRA Instructor

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array cvhoss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    2,045
    Concerning the previous shooting this officer was involved in, it might be beneficial for those who think this officer needs to be retrained to take a look at some of the articles involving that shooting. Here's a link to one article and here's a short segment of that article:
    Jesse Ramon, 22, continued pistol-whipping the victim as Karman got out of his patrol car and ordered him to stop. He dropped the victim and walked toward the officer with his weapon drawn, police said.

    Karman fired twice, striking Ramon in both legs. Ramon kept advancing, so the officer fired three more rounds, striking him twice in the torso. One of those bullets struck Whitehead, who lay on the ground directly behind his assailant, police said.

    “There was a straight line — officer, suspect, victim,” McManus said.
    5 shots fired, 4 hits on the bad guy. Good guy directly behind the advancing bad guy hit once. Terrible tragedy for the family of the good guy and for the police officer, but I can't find him reckless. The really sad part of this tragedy is that the BG who was hit 4 times survived and the victim didn't.

    Hoss
    Sig 239 SAS 40 S&W / Sig 239 9mm / Kahr PM-9 / Walther PPS .40 / Sig P-245 / Ruger LCP
    Beretta Tomcat / Walther PPK / BDA 380 / Taurus 85 / Kel-Tec PF-9 / Am. Derringer 357

    NRA Life Member
    My Web Site

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    6,781
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackle1886 View Post
    Read the story. BD was beating his robbery victim, pointed a gun at the officer, the officer fired on the BD.
    And in response he returned fire striking the BG in the legs and torso, as well as hitting the beating victim once in the chest killing him. :(

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    texas
    Posts
    15,170
    Sounds like the wild wild west....wait a minute it is the wild wild west.There are more shootings now than at any other time I remember back in the 80's and 90's
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  12. #11
    Distinguished Member Array P7fanatic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Texan in NWFlorida
    Posts
    1,588
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackle1886 View Post
    Read the story. BD was beating his robbery victim, pointed a gun at the officer, the officer fired on the BD.
    Read the story again Jackle.

    Karman ordered him to stop, but the man, Jesse Ramon, pointed a handgun at the officer, police said.

    Karman fired twice, striking Ramon in both legs, and Ramon kept advancing, so the officer fired three more times. He struck Ramon twice in the torso and Whitehead once in the chest.


    Five shots fired by Karman. Victim dead. Think it'd probably been better for Whitehead if Karman had never shown up.

    He gets the drop on the two robbers in the restaurant and still loses the advantage on them.

    I'd say he's either due for some range time or a desk job.


    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson

    "Liberalism is a Mental Disorder." -Michael Savage

    GOOD Gun Control is being able to hit your target! -Myself

  13. #12
    Moderator
    Array gasmitty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Gilbert, AZ
    Posts
    10,018
    Still too early and too few facts available for all the judgements being pronounced here. Do we know for a fact that Whitehead did not walk into the line of fire? Do we know for a fact that the bullet that struck Whitehead didn't first go through Ramon? And do we know for a fact that Whitehead died as a result of the gunshot wound, and not from the beating administered by two men?

    It's one thing to wonder and to speculate about what happened, but quite something else to draw conclusions and assign blame based on the sketchy information provided so far. Let's keep the minds open, folks.
    Smitty
    NRA Endowment Member

  14. #13
    Ex Member Array JOHNSMITH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    somewhere
    Posts
    1,726
    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    Sounds like the wild wild west....wait a minute it is the wild wild west.There are more shootings now than at any other time I remember back in the 80's and 90's
    The rate of violent crime, statistically, has actually dropped to around early 1970 levels. It peaked in the late 80s/early 90s, right before the movement of liberalization of gun laws.

    But, there are more bad guys in general out there, I think. Maybe it's just because it's much easier to find every news story otu there these days, but still... it's sad that these sort of things have to happen.

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Question about "Outside the Wire" carry on a DOD installation
    By Herknav in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: September 26th, 2010, 10:21 PM
  2. Down to the wire: deciding on another pistol
    By CDRGlock in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: July 29th, 2010, 09:21 PM
  3. Gardener Ordered to Remove Barbed Wire Fence on Grounds It Could 'Wound Thieves'
    By miklcolt45 in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: October 15th, 2008, 01:54 PM
  4. Bloomberg Gun Giveaway Coming Down to the Wire
    By p8riot in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: March 30th, 2007, 02:08 PM
  5. Hello from San Antonio
    By Texas 48 in forum New Members Introduce Yourself
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: March 19th, 2007, 07:20 PM

Search tags for this page

do you have to carry off duty with sapd
,
mcmanus concealed carry san antonio
,
san antonio police dept off duty weapon
,
san antonio police dept off duty weapons
,
sapd karman
,

sapd off duty carry

,
will karman sapd
,

william karman sapd

Click on a term to search for related topics.