Detroit Pastor shoots intruder...

This is a discussion on Detroit Pastor shoots intruder... within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Reading some of the comments at the end of the original article reveals just how far we've really fallen as a society. Sounds like this ...

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Thread: Detroit Pastor shoots intruder...

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Detroit Pastor shoots intruder...

    Reading some of the comments at the end of the original article reveals just how far we've really fallen as a society. Sounds like this pastor needs some support!

    Pastor Shoots Intruder At Church - Detroit Local News Story - WDIV Detroit

    Pastor Shoots Intruder At Church
    Pastor Speaks Exclusively with Local 4 About The Ordeal

    POSTED: Monday, September 28, 2009
    UPDATED: 7:42 pm EDT September 28, 2009
    DETROIT -- A pastor and retired police lieutenant shot and wounded a man who had broken into his Detroit church.

    #
    Watch: Pastor Shoots, Wounds Church Intruder

    Detroit police Sgt. Eren Stephens said the pastor, Lawrence Adams, had gone to Westside Bible Church about 6:45 p.m. Sunday after the church’s alarm system went off alerting him to an intruder. The church is located near 7 Mile Road and Grand River Boulevard.

    “When I got out of the car and saw the door open, I already had my gun out. It was behind my back," said Adams.

    Adams, 54, said he hid behind the door and grabbed the man as he walked out with a bag full of stolen church property.

    “He swung the bag at me. At the same time I fired a shot at him,” said Adams.

    Adams said he shot the man in the midsection and the two struggled a short time before police arrived.

    The man was in temporary serious condition Monday at an area hospital.

    Stephens said the pastor was not injured and is licensed to carry the handgun.

    "Some people would question a man of God, a pastor of a church carrying a gun, but God puts us in the position to protect ourselves," said Adams.

    Members of Adams’ church called him a good man and believe he was within his rights under the laws of man and God to use his gun.

    The gun was seized and police continue to investigate. Police sources told Local 4 they do not think Adams will face charges.

    Adams was a Detroit beat cop and police academy instructor until he retired in 2006.

    It is unclear if the pastor called police following the shooting or if the church's security company reported the break-in after a burglar alarm was triggered.

    Adams said he will use the experience as a sermon in church and prays he will never have to use his gun again.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array hogdaddy's Avatar
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    + 1 For the Pastor !! ; )
    A Native Floridian = RARE


    IT'S OUR RIGHTS>THEY WANT TO WRONG
    H/D

  4. #3
    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    Another instance where a supposed "Gun Free Zone" was too-tempting a target to a predator. Uhh...whoops! Wrong CHURCH. Note that the article mentions the pastor's reputation & background ("good man", "ex cop") but don't mention a word about the perp's past! Any priors, history of violence, outstanding warrants, what was being stolen. etc.? I guess this is what passes as objective reporting?
    There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those who describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.

  5. #4
    Distinguished Member Array Rugergirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    Another instance where a supposed "Gun Free Zone" was too-tempting a target to a predator. Uhh...whoops! Wrong CHURCH. Note that the article mentions the pastor's reputation & background ("good man", "ex cop") but don't mention a word about the perp's past! Any priors, history of violence, outstanding warrants, what was being stolen. etc.? I guess this is what passes as objective reporting?
    Now, now give the media a chance, pretty soon Mama will be on TV telling anybody that will listen that he's a good boy and never been in trouble, wouldn't hurt anybody...
    Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    pretty soon Mama will be on TV...
    Yeah, but if he had a father like mine in his life & robbed a church? The City of Detroit wouldn't have to worry about his trial...'cause they'd never find the body!
    There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those who describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.

  7. #6
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    I dunno, grabbing the BG wasn't the smart thing to do in my opinion. I think I'd have first called the police and then, from the cover of my vehicle, waited for the police to arrive.
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
    judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
    superior skills."

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    I wish the pastor would have waited and watched from the safety of his vehicle, until the cops had responded and arrived on scene.

    The lesson I will take from this, which is merely a reaffirmation, is do not assume that BGs do not remain even as you might not see or hear them in the immediate.

    Had the BG been armed or brought backup along with him then this would have been a story reflecting the second pastor in two months to be murdered at/within their own church.

    I'm sure the church and it's membership more highly values the life and healthful living of their pastor than the retention of their possessions as had been in the thief's hands.
    Also if the pastor had been injured/wounded while attempting to stop the thief alone on his own and he had been left to live wounded and disabled...Guess who would be left to cover that bill as into perpetuity until death do he part.
    First hint; It wouldn't be the thief.

    A church burglary event is no different than a store or car dealership or anything else to that end.

    Just a thought of consideration against the whole.
    Though personally I have zero issue at all and see no problem with a man of the cloth defending himself nor his flock as with a Bible in one hand and an arm at the other.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  9. #8
    Member Array Mountaineer's Avatar
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    Michigan is not a "defensive of personal property" state. Life and family only, so that wasn't a situation where I would have fired. Obviously, if the intruder had attacked, Yes, but in this case it was theft of property, which under MI law, does not justify deadly force.

  10. #9
    Member Array CJ810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumper View Post
    I dunno, grabbing the BG wasn't the smart thing to do in my opinion. I think I'd have first called the police and then, from the cover of my vehicle, waited for the police to arrive.
    I agree.

    When I was growing up the church my Dad was pastor of was robbed several times. There were petty things where a spoiled juvenile delinquent in the church stole from the offering plate and crawled under the pews to steal from ladies purses. He has since done hard time for theft.

    But there were also more significant crimes like when thieves broke into an outside bathroom that wasn't alarmed, smashed a hole in the drywall to get through to the inside bathroom just opposite, and then went from there to the office to get the safe, carried it back to the bathroom to crack it, and left through the hole in the wall and outside bathroom, w/o ever setting off the alarm. Motion detectors were installed immediately and everyone was aware that it must have been an "inside" job. But nobody was ever caught.

    And there were some false alarms where the bats living in the churches belfry (No joke LOL) set off the motion detectors in the sanctuary at night. The police went through the building with guns drawn 2x because the alarm company was saying there were people in the building. The police were the ones to suggest the bats that we later found.

    This is getting to be a long post full of anecdotal information, but I have one more thing I was going to add. This is not the first case of a pastor having to shoot someone, and probably won't be the last. In 1926 J. Frank Norris, the pastor of First Baptist Church of Fort Worth, shot and killed D.E. Chipps in Norris office.

    Chipps had called Norris to tell him he was on his way over to shoot him. In the office Norris almost talked him down, but Chipps appeared to start to draw, and Norris shot him dead.

    Some said he was unarmed, but there was pretty good evidence that the pastor had adequate reason to believe that Chipps was drawing a gun and had killed in the past.

    Norris was acquitted. Interestingly, when he was 13 years old, cattle rustlers shot his father at their ranch for testifying against them. Norris charged them with his pocket knife (bad tactics, but brass balls) and was shot several times and barely survived. It's easy to see why he might not have waited to see if Chipps was actually carrying or just bluffing.

  11. #10
    Member Array carry ok's Avatar
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    Well...

    my humblest opinion says that (1.) The thief swung his bag at the Pastor, so self defense is warranted. (2.) The Pastor is a retired 'beat cop'. Old habits die hard. Pastor/Officer Adams, this opiner says, and I quote, "good show".
    Extremism in the Defense of Liberty is No Vice--Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice is No Virtue. - Senator Barry Goldwater

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Yeah, but he's not a cop...anymore.
    He's a civilian, like you and I. He knows this and should know better, having been a cop.

    And as to the bag being swung he shouldn't have placed himself in that position to get swung on in the first place.
    Not that a swung bag of swag is akin to lethal force.
    I'd bet he didn't shoot the guy on purpose but rather it was reflexive squeeze that was the cause. Finger being on trigger. :|

    Glad that end the end no body died and that likely will be his saving grace.
    Because as noted by others above lethal force is not lawful as related to defense, or likely recovery either, of property.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    If someone wants to rob a church and violently attack a pastor, then that person deserves to be stopped ... caught in the act, even.

    IMO, the victim did nothing wrong.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  14. #13
    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
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    They seized his gun.

    I hope he has a backup.

  15. #14
    Member Array JBozeman's Avatar
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    While in Seminary and working as a Security Guard at night after class, on various occasions I would have to call NOPD in New Orleans. It would take forever for them to get to my location and I was unarmed. When they came they would come with Sirens blasting and BG's were on the run as soon as they heard the familiar sound. I was forced to stay hidden and wait for LEO's to arrive. No fun at all.
    You guys are correct that if there is phone access the first thing to do is call the LEO's. Concealment of a Weapon and concealment of your person is always to the advantage until the time for the line to be crossed. I'm not as fit and fast as I used to be. I'm not, like Doc Holliday says, "in my Prime", anymore. I don't think I will be jumping anybody until forced to respond in that way. For me I really don't want to get that close. Yet there could be a time when the line approaches us or at least has approached to close. Got to keep the Phone and CCW accessible!


    Like Sam Elliot said in the "Quick and the Dead", work hard at staying alive. Wise words for these days were LIVING in and through!

    Take Care folks
    Stay Safe
    Boze
    Boze
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to, this is the last stand on earth." Ronald Reagan

    "Gentlemen, Prepare to defend yourselves" SGM Basil Plumley

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    As a Pastor of a church with a security alarm system that goes off more than it should. I regular arrive at the church before the LEOs. What I do is call county dispatch or 911 and tell them I am present and what I am driving and if it is late at night I try to stay with dispatch until LEOer or LOEs arrive. Going through the dark church with 1or 2 LEOs is a real trip. I have the keys to everything I have to open the doors to allow LEOs in. Standing there working locks and reaching to turn on lights with two 45s at your back hopefully not pointed at back (no eyes in back of my head) can make you take a quick breath and say fast prayer. I always tell LEOs I have CHL and am armed. Every time they say keep weapon out of sight and let them tend to everything. So far we have not had anyone in church when alarm has gone off, but you never know.

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