Three Hurt in Gun Range Accident

This is a discussion on Three Hurt in Gun Range Accident within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; After all the smoke settles, (no pun intended) I'd like to read the OFFICIAL police report. Report should include a mechanical inspection of the pistol....

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Thread: Three Hurt in Gun Range Accident

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array The Fish's Avatar
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    After all the smoke settles, (no pun intended) I'd like to read the OFFICIAL police report. Report should include a mechanical inspection of the pistol.
    " Keep On Packin' On The Bimah"

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  3. #17
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    Very good point Dukalmighty! I've never shot a Jennings, or even held one for that matter. But I'd be willing to bet it's a blowback design. And even if it isn't I HIGHLY doubt it would be able to keep cycling while sitting loose on a table with nothing to support the action and keep it firing.

  4. #18
    Member Array XsYang's Avatar
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    "Thourot set it down facing his wife, rather than downrange, which is considered a proper safety procedure."

  5. #19
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    Considering that there were multiple shots, the direction he put it down in is irrelevant. Recoil after the first shot would have spun it into another direction. From the article, it sounds to me like he had tried to machine it into a full auto and when it bumped the table something failed.

  6. #20
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    It would appear from the story that the weapon spun on its own from recoil. While having the correct way to begin with could have possibly given him time to stop the weapon, it probably happened quickly. The result of ineffective safety procedures, poor quality weapons (and/or improper modifications), and possibly improper weapons handling.

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecbaatz View Post
    So you are saying an inanimate object will do something on its own. How is a public range any different then me setting my loaded weapon on the kitchen table? The gun will not do anything by itself no matter what location it is in. It takes an outside force.
    No, that is not what I'm saying at all.

    What I AM saying is that when putting a gun to the bench as intended to be no longer in use as grounded, that gun should be empty with magazine removed and action open.

    The difference between a public range and what you do in your kitchen should be obvious and require no explanation.

    But since you ask the obvious...

    A public range is a place where persons other than yourself are most likely to be standing as in a line/row.
    It is well known and understood, or should be, that at public ranges all rounds are to be discharged down range only. Further all handling of firearms are to be done as at the line/bench only and to be done only at the time of intent to fire.
    Leaving a firearm on the bench as action closed eliminates anyones ability to know the exact state of that firearm at any given moment; Be it the shooter, the range officer, or the person(s) as at the line amongst you.
    Further as we all know people do stupid things on occasion such as grasping and even picking up firearms and PLACING THEIR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER as rather than properly indexed.
    Guess what happens when fingers touch triggers. BANG!
    Guess what happens when inexperienced/low skill having humans with fingers touch triggers that are not expecting a BANG! the first time? They immediately go into a fear or startle close their hand/grip into a ball tightening their grip further depressing the trigger.

    The prior is a serious and very common problem as featured here alone in so called 'accident' (negligence) postings.
    The latter would not occur with a semi-automatic firearm that is mechanically functioning properly. Which clearly this gun was not as based on the multiple rounds fired as in fully automatic type mode results.

    As to guns not doing anything itself, that is true...For a mechanically correct and normal functioning firearm.
    Clearly though as in this specific case this specific handgun was not a mechanically correct and normal functioning firearm.
    It fired three errant rounds at once.

    So again as at the bottom line IF the shooter had followed normal and proper firearm safety rules as well as public use range safety rules and had grounded/benched the firearm _AFTER_ having removed it's ammunition source, in this case the magazine, and had ejected the chamber round and checked it manually as well as visually to have been empty & clear...Then there would have been no physical way for the firearm to have discharged rounds even as in this specific case it was mechanically possible to fire and fire multiply with or without direct human input and control.

    As to you and your practices at your kitchen table that is not relevant here considering it is not a range nor is it a public space.
    But do know that what you do at your kitchen table is your own private business, until someone gets hurt.
    While as what you do at a public range is public business, before someone gets hurt.
    A large and obvious difference.

    - Janq

    P.S.
    We have had numerous stories posted in this thread as related to handguns in specific not being drop safe or otherwise mechanically incorrect, and having discharged also on their own mechanically upon being either dropped to a hard surface, bumped, or even having extremely light trigger modifications that have fired at the slightest touch of the trigger.

    None of this should be new news to anyone, as firearm mechanics fact. This is why there are specific methods to check proper operation of a firearm as related to maintenance.
    Failure to do so can and does result in situations such as this _including_ firearms firing as on their own including 'doubling' and even automatic fire.
    Last edited by Janq; October 4th, 2009 at 08:16 PM.
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  8. #22
    Member Array socal2310's Avatar
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    What do you guys think of this?

    BRYCO ARMS
    Model Jennings Nine,
    9mm LUGER caliber Semiautomatic Pistol

    WARNING: These pistols may create an EXTREMELY DANGEROUS CONDITION and a POTENTIAL FOR SERIOUS INJURY by firing without pulling the trigger.

    During the testing of a Bryco Arms, Jennings Nine pistol by a forensic firearms examiner it was noted that it would fire upon release of the thumb safety and spontaneously fire in a FULL AUTO MODE on an inconsistent bases. When loaded with the manual thumb safety in the “safe” position, if the trigger of the submitted firearm has been pulled stiffly a few times, the firearm will discharge when the thumb safety is moved to the “fire” position.

    Disassembly of the pistol revealed some wear/damage to the sear which allows slight downward movement when the trigger is pulled. It appears due to the wear/damage the sear/striker engagement is reduced allowing the striker to override the sear after the thumb safety is released.

    MANUALLY UNLOADING THIS PISTOL MAY BE VERY DANGEROUS SINCE IT COULD DISCHARGE DURING THIS PROCEDURE.

    Source:

    * AFTE Journal, Spring 2001; Volume 33, Number 2:145-147
    * Illinois State Police Laboratory, Springfield - Notice, December 7, 2000
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  9. #23
    Senior Member Array Rmac58's Avatar
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    ^ How did this design make it past QC?

  10. #24
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    Wow this could end up before a jury.

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveInTexas View Post
    Wow this could end up before a jury.
    If it does it will cost us all in higher costs for firearms.
    Say so long to the cheeep gun.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    I'm unfamiliar with this specific gun's action, but could a "hair trigger" be so borderline as to slip when a gun is placed onto a table a bit heavily, then fire off the remaining string of rounds simply via lack of anyone holding onto it? I'd think they might be lyin' about one round "just going off," but it's hard to mask several of them having done so.

    At my range, we also are aggressive about maintaining safety around unattended or currently-unused guns. If it's going to be put down and not shot for the moment, it should be emptied and the action opened ... then put down, with chamber flag.

    While any rounds exist in the dang thing, standard four gun safety rules should be followed, as well, which would have covered things even if this Jennings proved to be the hair-trigger nightmare they claim. NOTHING excuses the negligence of having slipped these, no matter what the problem with the gun.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  13. #27
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    Janq's picture says it all......

    NO hot guns unless the shooter is at the line and ready to engage targets; at all other times, the weapon is clear with the action open and clear. No exceptions!
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by socal2310 View Post
    What do you guys think of this?

    BRYCO ARMS
    Model Jennings Nine,
    9mm LUGER caliber Semiautomatic Pistol

    WARNING: These pistols may create an EXTREMELY DANGEROUS CONDITION and a POTENTIAL FOR SERIOUS INJURY by firing without pulling the trigger.

    During the testing of a Bryco Arms, Jennings Nine pistol by a forensic firearms examiner it was noted that it would fire upon release of the thumb safety and spontaneously fire in a FULL AUTO MODE on an inconsistent bases. When loaded with the manual thumb safety in the “safe” position, if the trigger of the submitted firearm has been pulled stiffly a few times, the firearm will discharge when the thumb safety is moved to the “fire” position.

    ...

    Source:

    * AFTE Journal, Spring 2001; Volume 33, Number 2:145-147
    * Illinois State Police Laboratory, Springfield - Notice, December 7, 2000

    Pretty damning, and suggestive that the claimants might have been absolutely correct, that "it just went off."

    If true, then it's another example of how anything mechanical can fail, even the most basic function of a firearm that we all take for granted as having to function properly before ever making it out of the factory for sale.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array rottkeeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    No, that is not what I'm saying at all.

    What I AM saying is that when putting a gun to the bench as intended to be no longer in use as grounded, that gun should be empty with magazine removed and action open.

    The difference between a public range and what you do in your kitchen should be obvious and require no explanation.

    But since you ask the obvious...

    A public range is a place where persons other than yourself are most likely to be standing as in a line/row.
    It is well known and understood, or should be, that at public ranges all rounds are to be discharged down range only. Further all handling of firearms are to be done as at the line/bench only and to be done only at the time of intent to fire.
    Leaving a firearm on the bench as action closed eliminates anyones ability to know the exact state of that firearm at any given moment; Be it the shooter, the range officer, or the person(s) as at the line amongst you.
    Further as we all know people do stupid things on occasion such as grasping and even picking up firearms and PLACING THEIR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER as rather than properly indexed.
    Guess what happens when fingers touch triggers. BANG!
    Guess what happens when inexperienced/low skill having humans with fingers touch triggers that are not expecting a BANG! the first time? They immediately go into a fear or startle close their hand/grip into a ball tightening their grip further depressing the trigger.

    The prior is a serious and very common problem as featured here alone in so called 'accident' (negligence) postings.
    The latter would not occur with a semi-automatic firearm that is mechanically functioning properly. Which clearly this gun was not as based on the multiple rounds fired as in fully automatic type mode results.

    As to guns not doing anything itself, that is true...For a mechanically correct and normal functioning firearm.
    Clearly though as in this specific case this specific handgun was not a mechanically correct and normal functioning firearm.
    It fired three errant rounds at once.

    So again as at the bottom line IF the shooter had followed normal and proper firearm safety rules as well as public use range safety rules and had grounded/benched the firearm _AFTER_ having removed it's ammunition source, in this case the magazine, and had ejected the chamber round and checked it manually as well as visually to have been empty & clear...Then there would have been no physical way for the firearm to have discharged rounds even as in this specific case it was mechanically possible to fire and fire multiply with or without direct human input and control.

    As to you and your practices at your kitchen table that is not relevant here considering it is not a range nor is it a public space.
    But do know that what you do at your kitchen table is your own private business, until someone gets hurt.
    While as what you do at a public range is public business, before someone gets hurt.
    A large and obvious difference.

    - Janq

    P.S.
    We have had numerous stories posted in this thread as related to handguns in specific not being drop safe or otherwise mechanically incorrect, and having discharged also on their own mechanically upon being either dropped to a hard surface, bumped, or even having extremely light trigger modifications that have fired at the slightest touch of the trigger.

    None of this should be new news to anyone, as firearm mechanics fact. This is why there are specific methods to check proper operation of a firearm as related to maintenance.
    Failure to do so can and does result in situations such as this _including_ firearms firing as on their own including 'doubling' and even automatic fire.
    You are absolutely correct Janq, at the club I belong to EVERYONE watches each other as well as the range officer. If anyone sees something, which is very rare, you will here about it. Never has anyone taken offense to being reminded because we all know the consequences of (just one little mistake). We are all only human so we need to watch each others six.
    For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the son of man be. Mathew 24:27

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  16. #30
    Senior Member Array Pure Kustom's Avatar
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    Haven't you guys ever heard of an Assault Handgun

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