Mass Shooting at Ft. Hood Texas Army Base (Merged) - Updated

This is a discussion on Mass Shooting at Ft. Hood Texas Army Base (Merged) - Updated within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by tiwee Sixto for the win. The shooting war long avoided on US soil is here in the form of one little ambush ...

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  1. #196
    Member Array Damion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiwee View Post
    Sixto for the win. The shooting war long avoided on US soil is here in the form of one little ambush here and one mass murder there.

    Islam: Making a True Difference in the World

    This is not something new. Internet Islamic History Sourcebook Islam has been spread by the sword since the seventh century. Had it not been for the French King, Charles "The Hammer" Martel at the Battle of Tours in 732, we all would be locked in the Muslim middle ages like much of the Islamic world today. King Charles saved the western world by stopping the military expansion of Islam that had run unchecked for 100 years. It took the Spanish almost 200 more years to expel the Muslims from Spain. So, for 1100 years, they turned their attentions to their east and to Africa. Now, however, the move to the west is renewed. What has happened in the last seventy years is an unprecedented transfer of wealth to oil rich Islamic nations. This has enabled the religion of peace to fund the renewal of the struggle started by Mohamed in 632. But let's ignore the history and look at Islam in 2009.

    Giving Muslims the benefit of the doubt, today 99.9% of Islam may be peaceful. That leaves 1,000,000 Islamic fanatics to wreak havoc. The thing that troubles is the one billion avowed peaceful Islamic people do not seem to be mounting effective programs to curb the fanatics. Thereby, allowing their religion to be portrayed in a very bad light.

    It is time for peace loving Muslims to step up to the plate and eliminate the bad seeds. For an example of what to do, see the US government's successful efforts against a whole range of murderous fanatic groups. An effort which is ongoing and will never be complete.

    Until I see effective action from the moderate Islamic community, I have to equate standing by and watching the carnage with being a passive, peaceful, participant in the carnage. In other words, it is not enough for peaceful Muslims to stand by clucking their tongues while fanatics murder and destroy in the name of Islam. At some point, to gain my respect, moderate Islam has to come to grips with what is being done in their name. Or, just admit the obvious - the vast majority of the Islamic world agrees with what is going on in the world.
    good point i can aggree with that
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  3. #197
    Member Array carry ok's Avatar
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    Agreed, however...

    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Lets take our rose colored PC glasses off for a minute, and look at some factual recent history;

    June 23, 1985: Air India Flight 182 bombing over the Atlantic Ocean - 329 killed

    December 21, 1988: Pan Am Flight 103 bombing over Scotland - 270 killed

    February 26 1993 - World Trade Center bombing, New York City. 6 killed.

    March 12, 1993: Bombay bombings - 257 killed

    December 24 1994 - Air France Flight 8969 hijacking in Algiers by 3 members of Armed Islamic Group of Algeria and another terrorist. 7 killed including 4 hijackers

    June 25 1996 - Khobar Towers bombing, 20 killed, 372 wounded.

    February 14 1998. The 1998 Coimbatore bombings occurred in the city of Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu, India. 46 people were killed and over 200 were injured in 13 bomb attacks within a 12 km radius

    August 7, 1998: U.S. embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania - 224 killed

    October 12 2000 - Attack on the USS cole in the Yemeni port of Aden

    September 11, 2001: September 11 attacks in the United States - 2,998 killed

    13 December 2001 - Suicide attack on India's parliament in New Delhi. Aimed at eliminating the top leadership of India and causing anarchy in the country. Allegedly done by Pakistan-based Islamist terrorist organizations, Jaish-E-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Toiba

    March 3 2002 - Suicide bomb attack on a Passover Seder in a Hotel in Netanya, Israel. 29 dead, 133 injured

    May 7 2002 - Bombing in al-Arbaa, Algeria. 49 dead, 117 injured.

    September 24 2002 - Machine Gun attack on Hindu temple in Ahmedabad, India. 31 dead, 86 injured

    October 12, 2002: Bali bombing in Indonesia - 202 killed

    March 2, 2004: Ashura massacre in Iraq - 170 killed

    March 11, 2004: Madrid train bombings in Spain - 191 killed 1462 injured

    May 16 2004 - Casablanca Attacks - 4 simultaneous attacks in Casablanca killing 33 civilians (mostly Moroccans) carried by Salafaia Jihadia.

    September 4, 2004: Beslan school hostage crisis in Russia - 344 killed (186 children)

    November 2 2004 - Ritual murder of Theo van Gogh (film director) by Amsterdam-born jihadist Mohammed Bouyeri.

    February 4 2005 - Muslim militants attacked the Christian community in Demsa, Nigeria, killing 36 people, destroying property and displacing an additional 3000 people

    February 28 2005: Al Hillah bombing in Iraq - 127 killed

    July 7 2005 - Multiple bombings in London Underground. 53 killed by four suicide bombers. Nearly 700 injured.

    July 23 2005 - Bomb attacks at Sharm el-Sheikh, an Egyptian resort city, at least 64 people killed.

    October 29 2005 - 29 October 2005 Delhi bombings, India. Over 60 killed and over 180 injured in a series of three attacks in crowded markets and a bus, just 2 days before the Diwali festival.

    November 9 2005 - 2005 Amman bombings. Over 60 killed and 115 injured, in a series of coordinated suicide attacks on hotels in Amman, Jordan. Four attackers including a husband and wife team were involved

    March 7 2006 - 2006 Varanasi bombings, India. An attack attributed to Lashkar-e-Taiba by Uttar Pradesh government officials, over 28 killed and over 100 injured, in a series of attacks in the Sankath Mochan Hanuman temple and Cantonment Railway Station in the Hindu holy city of Varanasi. Uttar Pradesh government officials

    July 11, 2006: Mumbai train bombings in India - 207 killed

    March 27, 2007: Tal Afar bombings and massacre in Iraq - 152 killed

    August 14, 2007: Yazidi communities bombings in Iraq - 796 killed

    May 13 2008. Jaipur, India. Pakistan-based Islamic militants detonate around 7 bombs within 12 minutes, leaving over 60 dead and numerous injured.

    July 26 2008. Ahmedabad, India. Islamic militants detonate at least 16 explosive devices in the heart of this industrial capital, leaving at least 49 dead and 160 injured. A Muslim group calling itself the Indian Mujahideen claims responsibility. Indian authorities believe that extremists with ties to Pakistan and/or Bangladesh are likely responsible and are intent on inciting communal violence. Investigation by Indian police led to the eventual arrest of a number of militants suspected of carrying out the blasts, most of whom belong to a well-known terrorist group, The Students Islamic Movement of India

    September 13 2008. Delhi, India. Pakistani extremist groups plant bombs at several places including India Gate, out of which the ones at Karol Bagh, Connaught Place and Greater Kailash explode leaving around 30 people dead, followed by another attack two weeks later at the congested Mehrauli area, leaving 2 people dead.

    November 26-28, 2008 - 2008 Mumbai attacks in India - 185 killed

    Lets not forget about the DC sniper, and now Ft. Hood.

    We must have a different idea of what peaceful is. And I can make this list a lot longer if I wanted to spend more time on this post.

    We are dealing with a very real problem here, no matter if you or the media wants to admit it. We are going to see more and more of this stuff, here and abroad. Mark my words, as soon as our military leaves the middle east, we are in for a rough time.
    in fairness, I feel that you should list the most recent 34 or 35 murderous sprees, or such endeavors by Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists, Pentecostals, Lutherans,et al, that were initiated by the perpetrators, with statements, and or writings claiming, in their own words that their actions were for their religious beliefs. Seems only fair to me. But, then, I confess to being an 'ol fashioned knuckledragger, that tries to take people at their word, and not assume that I know better than they, as to what their motives are or were. My kind will soon pass, and then the world can progress into utopia, perhaps.
    Extremism in the Defense of Liberty is No Vice--Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice is No Virtue. - Senator Barry Goldwater

  4. #198
    VIP Member Array Brass63's Avatar
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    A difficult and complex discussion.
    I would add only this...not all worldviews, faiths and beliefs are equal.
    The ancient Canaanite religion required mothers to place newborn infants on the red-hot arms of their idols.
    The cult of the North Korean dictator has resulted in millions of deaths by starvation and execution.
    Nazism, Stalinism, and Maoism slaughtered tens of millions and stripped nearly every freedom and joy from their subjects.
    Historically speaking, it's true that every Faith, including Christianity, has had its dark moments. But let us not deceive ourselves into thinking that there are no objective standards to weigh these matters.
    I say this without hatred and intolerance. And yet, at the same time I remind everyone that our freedoms (of speech, religion, self-defense, press, etc.) are precious and fragile. And in many worldviews they are nearly non-existent.
    The United States Constitution © 1791. All Rights Reserved.

  5. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by carry ok View Post
    in fairness, I feel that you should list the most recent 34 or 35 murderous sprees, or such endeavors by Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists, Pentecostals, Lutherans,et al, that were initiated by the perpetrators, with statements, and or writings claiming, in their own words that their actions were for their religious beliefs. Seems only fair to me. But, then, I confess to being an 'ol fashioned knuckledragger, that tries to take people at their word, and not assume that I know better than they, as to what their motives are or were. My kind will soon pass, and then the world can progress into utopia, perhaps.

    If you feel that listing those incidents would be important, please do so. But I have to say that comparing those two will only bolster my argument.
    The difference is, that those are lone actors with no organization that hides behind a smoke screen of religion.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  6. #200
    Member Array carry ok's Avatar
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    Sixto, actually.....

    I am not aware of any. (toungue in cheek), (facetious). I am in probable total agreement with your sentiments in the highlighted post.
    Extremism in the Defense of Liberty is No Vice--Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice is No Virtue. - Senator Barry Goldwater

  7. #201
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    Oh OK, I missed the sarcasm.

    But, I was thinking about your post, and there are some "Christian" based terrorists. Abortion doctor shootings and the like. But, like what was said before, anytime one of these perpetrators comes out and claims affiliation with a church or religion, the church does not defend, make excuses or even claim that person.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  8. #202
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    Condeming The Enemy:

    I think what is happening with some posts is premature judgment: it's logical to think of terrorism in this case for a lot of reasons: the targets were US Soldiers, the killer yelled a phrase used by terrorists in the past, and he had political views similar to the terrorists - at least in kind - and also because the killer had the same religion and ethnicity as the this group of terrorists. So terrorism is one of the things that should be investigated, even the first would be enough: targeting US soldiers on their way to war. However, the possibility of terrorism IS being investigated.

    And that's it. Jumping to the conclusion he's a Muslim terrorist, is very premature. The investigation is barely started. Plenty of assassins and mass killers, do it in the name of some cause - but are found in fact to be disturbed and were acting alone, and had no actual connection to any cause, group, organization - or anything besides themselves. They also believe God is on their side, they are carrying out His will, they are saving the world etc. And some indications have already been found of past odd behavior and inability to do well in this killer's profession or personal life - in which he was a loner.

    So, why not leave condemning the "enemy" until or if there is an enemy found beyond him in the investigations that have just begun? Otherwise, you risk damaging and endangering anyone who shares the religion or ethnic background of one individual - of which there are 1.5 Billion "anyones" - including quite a few peaceful and loyal Americans. This would be destructive even if the killer was found to be directly connected to - or even ordered by - one group of these terrorists. But right now, that isn't even close to being determined. The tragedy just happened.
    Last edited by hamlet; November 8th, 2009 at 04:03 AM. Reason: Editing spelling.

  9. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiwee View Post
    Islam has been spread by the sword since the seventh century.
    So has every major "-ism" the humankind has ever seen, basically, whether it's an educational framework (think science and the solar system), a philosophy, religion, economic model, governance model, or whatever.

    At some point, to gain my respect, [XYZ] has to come to grips with what is being done in their name.
    Any movement's clear statement of philosophy and clear stand goes a long way toward blowing the smoke from the dark corridors, yes. ALL movements that find their philosophies being corrupted "in their name" by others need to take a stand against it, or crash in ruin.

    NONE of which explains this guy's motivations. We might well never know, unless he wrote it all down or spoke of his purpose to someone.

    Either way, he's a murderer and worthless coward who deserves far more than what's coming, IMO. As of this morning, the once-human coward is in hospital, in intensive care.

    I can't imagine how many $millions are going to be spent on legal machinations and housing him for life.

    A good yardarm can be found. The Navy has hundreds. Or, resurrect the firing squad, which was used to good effect in a bygone era. If summary execution could be justified for field desertion, it's hard to believe it cannot be justified for mass-murder of one's brothers in arms. Line him up and be done with it.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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  10. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post

    And that's it. Jumping to the conclusion he's a Muslim terrorist, is very premature.
    Walks like a duck, talks likes a duck, looks like a duck...


    It doesnt matter if he is or isnt connected to a larger organization. The pattern is clear cut.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  11. #205
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    Walks like a duck, talks likes a duck, looks like a duck...
    It doesnt matter if he is or isnt connected to a larger organization. The pattern is clear cut.
    __________________
    It's the only thing that matters. Read ALL of my post.

    It's also irresponsible not to have facts before labeling events and people, singly or groups, with one's conclusions - especially if they are based to a significant degree on religious and ethnic backgrounds. That's just bias.

  12. #206
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    If you want to know why he did it just read the Koran. To the degree that he truly believed what it says he did what faith made him do. Don't take my word, read the book, plenty of justification there. It really is a us/them thing and it is to our disadvantage that we insist on being PC . All ideas and beliefs are not equal, people want to believe that any "faith" any belief, any idea or culture is inherently good and they are not. Is cannibalism good ? Human sacrifice ? Why not ? They are part of faiths, cultures and beliefs. These days nothing is wrong ,bad or just plain stupid. That kind of cultural and moral relativism does nothing but give advantage to those who would kill us in this case. Look at the Muslim world for all the proof you need. The Muslim world has been stagnant for a thousand years and they can thank their religion for that. Spain translates more books into Spanish in one year than the whole Muslim world. Guys like Osama aren't extremist, they're just good Muslims.You won't hear "moderates" condemning these people because these guys are the ones who truly follow the religion, not the so -called moderates. The so called moderates do like any other religious moderate, they pick and choose what they want to follow from their faith, same as any other Catholic, Jew etc does, the REAL believer is the guy who wants to stone you for working on Sunday or having pre-marital sex. Don't take my word, read the Koran and the Hadiths yourself. In this case it is precisely the faith of Islam that causes terrorism. To say otherwise is to be dishonest , not know or not want to know.
    There is an old saying, "So you believe, so you shall do" .

    As a soldier it pains me greatly to see other soldiers killed and hurt by someone who was supposed to be a brother, someone who should have been willing to fight through hell and back WITH these guys, not against them . Harming another soldier is the absolute worst thing a soldier could do. Hang this guy,ASAP.

  13. #207
    Member Array carry ok's Avatar
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    Very well....

    Quote Originally Posted by Butch View Post
    If you want to know why he did it just read the Koran. To the degree that he truly believed what it says he did what faith made him do. Don't take my word, read the book, plenty of justification there. It really is a us/them thing and it is to our disadvantage that we insist on being PC . All ideas and beliefs are not equal, people want to believe that any "faith" any belief, any idea or culture is inherently good and they are not. Is canabalism good ? Human sacrifice ? Why not ? They are part of faiths, cultures and beliefs. These days nothing is wrong ,bad or just plain stupid. That kind of cultural and moral relativism does nothing but give advantage to those who would kill us in this case. Look at the Muslim world for all the proof you need. The Muslim world has been stagnant for a thousand years and they can thank their religion for that. Spain translates more books into Spanish in one year than the whole Muslim world. Guys like Osama aren't extremist, they're just good Muslims.You won't hear "moderates" condemning these people because these guys are the ones who truly follow the religion, not the so -called moderates. The so called moderates do like any other religious moderate, they pick and choose what they want to follow from their faith, same as any other Catholic, Jew etc does, the REAL believer is the guy who wants to stone you for working on Sunday or having pre-marital sex. Don't take my word, read the Koran and the Hadiths yourself. In this case it is precisely the faith of Islam that causes terrorism. To say otherwise is to be dishonest , not know or not want to know.

    As a soldier it pains me greatly to see other soldiers killed and hurt by someone who was supposed to be a brother, someone who should have been willing to fight through hell and back WITH these guys, not against them . Harming another soldier is the absolute worst thing a soldier could do. Hang this guy,ASAP.
    stated. At some point reasonable minds must come to a conclusion that, as Sixto wrote, the duck adage is accurate. And aside from the mass terror acts, consider the subject of 'honor killings' coming to light in the U.S.ofA. lately. This is yet another apparent tenet of this 'peaceful' religion. Although no religion expert, I have studied the subject somewhat. I know of no other modern practice of a civilized religious group that has such doctrinal practices.
    Extremism in the Defense of Liberty is No Vice--Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice is No Virtue. - Senator Barry Goldwater

  14. #208
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    For me, this just defies explanation on so many levels.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." – Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." – Thomas Jefferson

  15. #209
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    History gives us a parallel. I am sure at one point, the Romans were sitting around discussing the Visigoths and Vandals. I am sure after the long slow decline that preceded the sack of Rome in 476, there were those that still held the position that the barbaric Germanic tribes were not bent on Rome's destruction. It would be ridiculous, they said, to assume the actions of small groups of crazy barbarians represented the will of all barbarians. After all, we are Romans, the most powerful empire on the earth. This too will pass and we will continue to be able to sit on our brains forever, as rulers of our lands and masters of our homes.

    This delusion lasted right up until the wild men from the north killed them, raped their wife, destroyed their buildings and carried their children off into slavery.

    The eastern portions of the Roman Empire held out for 1000 more years until they too were overwhelmed and destroyed by hordes from the religion of peace. Those that ignore history are condemned to repeat it.

  16. #210
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    It really is a us/them thing and it is to our disadvantage that we insist on being PC
    .

    Right now, it was HIM vs the Soldiers at Ft. Hood.

    Right now there is no US and there is no THEM. This may or may not be the case after investigations are done. But since they barely started, right now we don't know that.

    And that's what we know.

    If nevertheless someone wants to label this a war between large groups, that's their mind: it doesn't describe reality.

    I think it's healthier to wait until there's clarity from completed investigations and much more information known. And there's a far better chance of being correct in evaluating this tragedy and avoiding prejudice.

    This isn't PC. It's reason. "PC" is just another label that's hauled out to discount opinions from those one disagrees with. It creates another THEM.

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